Zuisho graft question

[JeffS73]

I made some grafts of P.Parviflora 'Zuisho' onto P. Thunbergii recently.

Can anyone more experienced please tell me, should I remove apical buds from the root stock to direct energy to the graft?

Buds just starting to move.





Thanks for looking.

 

[mrcasey]

I never do. The more important consideration is protecting the scion from desiccation. You either need a parafilm
cocoon wrap, wet sphagnum and baggie enclosure, or misting system. If you use the baggie method, you'll need to protect
the scion from the sun somehow.

 

[Adair M]

I never do. The more important consideration is protecting the scion from desiccation. You either need a parafilm
cocoon wrap, wet sphagnum and baggie enclosure, or misting system. If you use the baggie method, you'll need to protect
the scion from the sun somehow.

Masking tape on the baggie.

 

[JeffS73]

How long do you keep the baggie on, I'm kinda worried about fungus. Why keep the sun off, is that dessication again?

 

[mrcasey]

Here's a good article by Jonas Dupuich using the baggie method on a juniper graft. He gives a general timeline. The same ideas apply to pine grafting. Make sure to wring out the sphagnum before tying the baggie - there'll be a lot more condensation than you expect.

 

[mrcasey]

Here's a good article by Jonas Dupuich using the baggie method on a juniper graft. He gives a general timeline. The same ideas apply to pine grafting. Make sure to wring out the sphagnum before tying the baggie - there'll be a lot more condensation than you expect.

Whoops ) forgot the link: https://bonsaitonight.com/2018/07/03/side-veneer-graft-aftercare-bag-technique/

 

[0soyoung]

Can anyone more experienced please tell me, should I remove apical buds from the root stock to direct energy to the graft?

I am a wanna be 'experienced grafter' with many failures and a few successes. The common feature I've recently noted is that my successes had relatively little foliage/buds above the graft point. I've been very surprised by how strong the effect is or seems to be.

It is well known that auxin flow from above (the only place it can come from because of PAT) normally suppresses bud release. I think the answer is to reduce the foliage and buds above the graft.


"sending energy" sends me into a rage, but I am a sciency type, not a mystic.

 

[Shibui]

I also use plastic bags to protect pine grafts while they heal. Small ziplok bags work well for me. Initially there is no connection for water to get to the scion. It is essentially a cutting with no roots. Wrapping maintains humidity and slows dehydration until there is a connection between stock and the new scion. I have not had a problem with fungus in the bags while it heals up. Remove the bags when the scion shows signs of growing. Protect from direct sun as the bags can act like mini green hose and overheat the scion.
It is possible to have a successful evergreen graft without bagging the scions but rates will be much better where scions are bagged or given some other form of humidity.

I have been leaving plenty of foliage above the new graft on the grounds that foliage drives growth and healing and I want rapid healing at the graft site.
Later, when I am satisfied that the graft has been successful - time varies with each individual - I then reduce the foliage above the graft to direct more growth to the scion. Look for increased growth of the scion and signs of healing around the graft.
With evergreens it appears to be important NOT to reduce the stock suddenly so I progressively reduce the stock over months. That allows gradual changes to sap flow paths until most roots are feeding the new scion. Sometimes for weaker ones it takes a year or more before I am confident enough to cut right back to the graft.

 

[mrcasey]

I am a wanna be 'experienced grafter' with many failures and a few successes. The common feature I've recently noted is that my successes had relatively little foliage/buds above the graft point. I've been very surprised by how strong the effect is or seems to be.

It is well known that auxin flow from above (the only place it can come from because of PAT) normally suppresses bud release. I think the answer is to reduce the foliage and buds above the graft.


"sending energy" sends me into a rage, but I am a sciency type, not a mystic.

In an old juniper grafting you tube video, Fred Miyahara suggests this for, I think, a similar reason. I only get about 30%-50% of my pine grafts to take (per year). Maybe I'll try this and see if I can up my success rate.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

the only place it can come from because of PAT

Nah, bro. Local production too! No need for transport if you make your own.

Local Auxin Biosynthesis Is a Key Regulator of Plant Development

Auxin is a major phytohormone that controls numerous aspects of plant development and coordinates plant responses to the environment. Morphogenic grad…

www.sciencedirect.com

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-arplant-042817-040226?journalCode=arplant

 

[0soyoung]

Thanks for the citations @Wires_Guy_wires.

Context.

 

[River's Edge]

I am a wanna be 'experienced grafter' with many failures and a few successes. The common feature I've recently noted is that my successes had relatively little foliage/buds above the graft point. I've been very surprised by how strong the effect is or seems to be.

It is well known that auxin flow from above (the only place it can come from because of PAT) normally suppresses bud release. I think the answer is to reduce the foliage and buds above the graft.


"sending energy" sends me into a rage, but I am a sciency type, not a mystic.

Another approach is to make a separate cut above the graft to reduce the auxin flow to that area specifically, without compromising the apical growth. This is a common step in the grafting process, at least from my teachers. The reasoning as explained to me was to reduce the auxin flow and allow a stronger influence of cytokines to influence lateral shoot development.

 

[JeffS73]

Lots of info here, thanks to all, sry for causing rage oosoyoung! I think of 'sending energy' as paraphrasing auxin flow, but honestly it's just my laziness. Better to be specific about what is happening at a horticultural level.

I had loosely wrapped cling film after grafting and have opened / closed on occasion. Buds seem to be swelling now as all other pines in the greenhouse, so I will just keep an eye on them.

Zuisho do seem quite special, buds are growing strongly, and where I have removed apical shoots for new plants, new buds had emerged in just weeks.

I've thrown ground layers on 3 or 4 of them, and started new plants from grafts, so I will update if progress is good. Many thanks to all.

 

[keri-wms]

Another approach is to make a separate cut above the graft to reduce the auxin flow to that area specifically, without compromising the apical growth. This is a common step in the grafting process, at least from my teachers. The reasoning as explained to me was to reduce the auxin flow and allow a stronger influence of cytokines to influence lateral shoot development.

This is a really handy detail so thanks, never occured to me before. I have heard of notching the bark above a dormant bud you want to burst on fruit trees which is also how we want our scion to behave - I’ll give this a go!

 

[Shibui]

Another approach is to make a separate cut above the graft to reduce the auxin flow to that area specifically, without compromising the apical growth. This is a common step in the grafting process, at least from my teachers. The reasoning as explained to me was to reduce the auxin flow and allow a stronger influence of cytokines to influence lateral shoot development.

This would make sense after the graft has healed to get it growing. I have also seen that technique used on species that bleed profusely - walnuts? where sap can impede the graft healing.
Initially however I would prefer plenty of sap/auxin/cytokin/ whatever flow to help the wound heal and unite. I certainly do not have any problem with grafting success without notching so maybe it is another of those redundant special features that experts like to do just to make the process seem more special????

 

[River's Edge]

maybe it is another of those redundant special features that experts like to do just to make the process seem more special????

You seem pretty certain with respect to your competence and the relative incompetence or motivation of others.

This would make sense after the graft has healed to get it growing.

Curious , why does it not make sense in your opinion? Is it redundant or does it make sense?

I have also seen that technique used on species that bleed profusely - walnuts? where sap can impede the graft healing.

Was it a redundant special feature in this case to make the process seem special?

Initially however I would prefer plenty of sap/auxin/cytokin/ whatever flow to help the wound heal and unite.

Sap has been proven to interfere with healing of newly grafted material, yet you want plenty of sap? Grafting times for several species are specifically chosen to avoid this issue! You mentioned walnuts, where you feel sap can impede graft healing.

?

 

[bwaynef]

I've been taught the technique where you make a series of cuts JUST further out from the intended graft location, and have seen an article by Gary Ishii advocating the same, but never with any mention of hormonal suppression. According to my experience, It's about the physics of sliding a scion in ...and keeping it in place.

 

[0soyoung]

I've been taught the technique where you make a series of cuts JUST further out from the intended graft location, and have seen an article by Gary Ishii advocating the same, but never with any mention of hormonal suppression. According to my experience, It's about the physics of sliding a scion in ...and keeping it in place.

I've seen that too and had left it out of mind until @River's Edge mentioned it.I just reviewed a YouTube video of Fred Miyahara grafting a juniper. He makes a succession of 3 slices, moving up the stem toward the foliage, and places the the scion in the first cut. He also talks about reducing the amount of foliage above the graft point.

 

[River's Edge]

I've been taught the technique where you make a series of cuts JUST further out from the intended graft location, and have seen an article by Gary Ishii advocating the same, but never with any mention of hormonal suppression. According to my experience, It's about the physics of sliding a scion in ...and keeping it in place.

True, the vertical cut to the side is intended to relieve pressure when sliding the scion in place. Using the grafting chisel method for JBP. This in particular works well when the scion is angled slightly to cross cambium, rather than trying to perfectly match cuts and cambium. Even more effective is leaving the smaller chisel in place until the scion is placed and being very quick in placement. I was referring to a horizontal cut or two above the graft site, interrupting the Auxin flow from the apical portion of the grafted branch in the region of the graft.

 

[Shibui]

You seem pretty certain with respect to your competence and the relative incompetence or motivation of others.

I think you may be misunderstanding my intention. No mention or inference of incompetence in others in any of my posts.
As far as my competence I have been grafting pines for around 20 years. Not huge numbers but enough to feel competent as I reliably get 95% or better success.

Curious , why does it not make sense in your opinion? Is it redundant or does it make sense?

You seem to have taken this out of context and/or misinterpreted. I have not said it does NOT make sense. I merely mused about why such a cut above the graft could be used. After the graft has healed it appears better to slowly divert flow from the stock to the scion so making the cuts above the scion should divert some flow away from the top of the stock and into the newly healed scion. I usually just cut the top of the stock in stages to achieve this. I do not pretend to understand whether this is due to sap flow or auxin flow/ production or some other factor.

Sap has been proven to interfere with healing of newly grafted material, yet you want plenty of sap? Grafting times for several species are specifically chosen to avoid this issue! You mentioned walnuts, where you feel sap can impede graft healing.

Yes, sap can interfere with grafts healing. You appear to agree that's why we pick specific times to graft when sap flow will not interfere in which case a technique that slows sap flow is redundant. I have seen this mentioned in conjunction with walnut grafting because it appears that sap starts to flow very early. I have not noticed sap flow interfering with JBP grafts so a method to reduce sap flow is redundant.
I think your original claim was the cut will reduce the auxin flow and thus stimulate lateral shoot development. Is the cut made at the time of grafting? How would that slow the flow of auxin to the grafted part which has no connection at that time? I assume that by the time the connective tissue has healed between stock and graft has healed to allow anything to pass to the scion your horizontal cut will also have healed and normal flow of auxin will have resumed? Perhaps I have misunderstood the technique? Maybe I just don't understand plant physiology well enough?

Was it a redundant special feature in this case to make the process seem special?

I still get good results even without the modification you mention so why should I add an extra step to an already successful process? Do you think it will lift my success rates to 100%? Maybe conditions are different up there and it really is needed when you graft pines? Have you ever tried grafting pines without the extra cut above the graft to check on the actual effectiveness of this?

Over many years I have seen other minor modifications to various techniques touted as an improvement or better than previous versions. Sometimes the changes are indeed an advance, Others I have tested do not seem to enhance performance, just waste extra time.
I have worked with a great many propagators over the years. Many have these little added extras to making cuttings, grafting, etc. When asked why, the usual reply is 'because that's how I was taught'. Most have never even questioned or tried any other way.
If you are happy making an extra cut on every pine graft you should continue to do so. I will certainly do some side by side trials here next year to see if it has any merit in my conditions because I rarely reject any possibilities until proven one way or the other.