Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Be most careful watering. Tall Cascade pots can retain wet bottoms and be dry or nearly so on top. 100% pumice would have been best as kakadama holds too much H2O
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Yashu’s another JBP progression thread.
- Thread starter yashu
- Start date
Thanks for the heads up. I was warned by both the person at NEBG where I acquired the pot, and several other online sources when I was initially researching cascade style for this tree that you will generally have to water a cascade planting slightly more often as the column created by the tall container will pull the moisture from the top down thus drying out the top of the soil mass far quicker than the same planting in a shallow pot. Ryan Neil went into this on one of his re-potting discussions fairly in-depth. When considering all of this I think pumice would have left my plant far too dry as all the roots are contained to the top 5th of the soil column at the moment. I work days so middle of the day watering for me is not an option and I’m maxed out at watering once in the morning and once at night when it’s very hot/dry. This may obviously change over time as the roots reach downward so I’ll keep an eye on that.Be most careful watering. Tall Cascade pots can retain wet bottoms and be dry or nearly so on top. 100% pumice would have been best as kakadama holds too much H2O
A question regarding decandling;
As you may note, on the previous page I posted a photo of the terminal bud(s) on one of the branches on this tree… this is what the majority of branches look likethis season. Last season each branch tip had a single terminal bud however I chose not to decandle as I was not sure of the health of the tree. This season, rather than a terminal bud, nearly every branch has at least 2 buds and most of the time there are 3 or 4 buds pushing from the terminal tip of each branch. Most of the tutorials I’ve watched on mekiri show a single terminal bud which is snipped in whatever way dictated by the technique presented. They don’t seem to show clusters of buds until the second flush begins to push.
So how do I deal with my specific situation? (Clusters of buds from the first initial flush of the season)
Should I cut all the candles back to the place where they all originate from? Do I treat them as all the tutorials suggest and cut each candle to a short stub? That seems like asking for giant swollen whorls as it is my understanding that a very short stub will elicit a very vigorous response (at least much more so than leaving a longer stub to modulate growth through the release of auxin. Ideally I would have 2 buds and just leave a longer jiku and end up with double the ramification at the end of the season but alas most branches have more than two buds on the tips.
So we’re on the same page, I’m using Jonas’ tutorial as my primary reference.
bonsaitonight.com
I’m trying to set up a plan for this season but this multi-bud decandling situation has me baffled. I’ll repost the bud photo below, this is what the majority of terminal tips look like… 4 +/- buds at each tip.
As you may note, on the previous page I posted a photo of the terminal bud(s) on one of the branches on this tree… this is what the majority of branches look likethis season. Last season each branch tip had a single terminal bud however I chose not to decandle as I was not sure of the health of the tree. This season, rather than a terminal bud, nearly every branch has at least 2 buds and most of the time there are 3 or 4 buds pushing from the terminal tip of each branch. Most of the tutorials I’ve watched on mekiri show a single terminal bud which is snipped in whatever way dictated by the technique presented. They don’t seem to show clusters of buds until the second flush begins to push.
So how do I deal with my specific situation? (Clusters of buds from the first initial flush of the season)
Should I cut all the candles back to the place where they all originate from? Do I treat them as all the tutorials suggest and cut each candle to a short stub? That seems like asking for giant swollen whorls as it is my understanding that a very short stub will elicit a very vigorous response (at least much more so than leaving a longer stub to modulate growth through the release of auxin. Ideally I would have 2 buds and just leave a longer jiku and end up with double the ramification at the end of the season but alas most branches have more than two buds on the tips.
So we’re on the same page, I’m using Jonas’ tutorial as my primary reference.
Decandling black pine bonsai - an in-depth guide - Bonsai Tonight
An in-depth guide to decandling black and red pine bonsai with how-to steps that provide all the information you'll need to get started.
bonsaitonight.com
I’m trying to set up a plan for this season but this multi-bud decandling situation has me baffled. I’ll repost the bud photo below, this is what the majority of terminal tips look like… 4 +/- buds at each tip.
CaptColin
Sapling
I've got a similar situation as well. Looking forward to the responses
WavyGaby
Shohin
Reduce to one terminal bud now (typically this task is done from fall through dormancy). Then, when candle-cutting time comes, you will just have one shoot/candle to cut. After candle cutting, this will produce several more buds. Wait until August and reduce to two buds of similar size with the best locations. This is where the fine ramification comes from - using the second flush of growth after candle cutting. You dont want to be doubling up the spring growth with multiple buds unless you intend on using one bud for the leader and one for a branch. Keep up the progress!A question regarding decandling;
As you may note, on the previous page I posted a photo of the terminal bud(s) on one of the branches on this tree… this is what the majority of branches look likethis season. Last season each branch tip had a single terminal bud however I chose not to decandle as I was not sure of the health of the tree. This season, rather than a terminal bud, nearly every branch has at least 2 buds and most of the time there are 3 or 4 buds pushing from the terminal tip of each branch. Most of the tutorials I’ve watched on mekiri show a single terminal bud which is snipped in whatever way dictated by the technique presented. They don’t seem to show clusters of buds until the second flush begins to push.
So how do I deal with my specific situation? (Clusters of buds from the first initial flush of the season)
Should I cut all the candles back to the place where they all originate from? Do I treat them as all the tutorials suggest and cut each candle to a short stub? That seems like asking for giant swollen whorls as it is my understanding that a very short stub will elicit a very vigorous response (at least much more so than leaving a longer stub to modulate growth through the release of auxin. Ideally I would have 2 buds and just leave a longer jiku and end up with double the ramification at the end of the season but alas most branches have more than two buds on the tips.
So we’re on the same page, I’m using Jonas’ tutorial as my primary reference.
Decandling black pine bonsai - an in-depth guide - Bonsai Tonight
An in-depth guide to decandling black and red pine bonsai with how-to steps that provide all the information you'll need to get started.
I’m trying to set up a plan for this season but this multi-bud decandling situation has me baffled. I’ll repost the bud photo below, this is what the majority of terminal tips look like… 4 +/- buds at each tip.
View attachment 478816
Do you have an outside link corroborating this info? This is contrary to what I’ve learned about JBP. It’s my understanding that if I cut buds now they will multiply and elongate along with the one that you suggest I leave. The cutting you do in the fall is shoot selection, i.e. choosing the shoots you wish to keep that will themselves produce buds for the following spring. Am I totally wrong on this?
D
Deleted member 32750
Guest
Yes. If you leave all of those buds it will swell very quickly once the buds start to elongate and will look ugly in the long run if you plan on keeping that part of the tree. They are spot on with the recommendation to reduce to one terminal bud. Then you only have to decandle one shoot and don’t have swelling concerns.
The reason that you have a whorl of terminal buds is because you didn’t decandle last year, and last years grow was vigorous enough to set multiple buds as pines do in nature. Typically when decandling, the ‘weaker’ second flush results in only one terminal bud set in fall.
When skipping on decandling you must be prepared to deal with the whorl of terminal buds that are set in fall. The way to deal with this is by reducing down to one bud.
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WavyGaby
Shohin
Yashu,
I got this information from the book, Growing Pines for Bonsai by Julian Adams.
For refinement, you want one bud at each terminal shoot. The others are removed completely before the candle extension phase.
Using the term bud in the August reduction might be confusing though. You are right, in August after the candles are cut, reduce to two shoots (this results in the doubling of shoots each year). Each of those shoots should be reduced to one terminal bud during dormancy. Then, repeat the process in the spring. As this process continues, energy is balanced and shoots on refined trees will send out just one bud and therefore, you will not have to remove excess buds in the fall.
Super, thank you. Using the info you guys gave me a did a quick search for some videos so I could get a visual idea. It seems that some folks will reduce to pairs of buds rather than one. Would this be a good route for me since I’m still trying to fill out my pads?
D
Deleted member 32750
Guest
You could reduce to two buds now, make sure they are the two most even strength buds. This would effectively be treating your jbp as a single flush pine. You would then have the same issue in fall with multiple terminal buds being set.
WavyGaby
Shohin
I think the confusion here is that he is doing shoot selection post-candle cutting but he is calling it bud removal.
Be most careful watering. Tall Cascade pots can retain wet bottoms and be dry or nearly so on top. 100% pumice would have been best as kakadama holds too much H2O
I have to disagree with this statement. Cascade pots are overall drier than shallow containers. The bottom layer is not wetter than that of a shallow pot with the same soil composition (the top might be drier. The volume of the wet bottom layer is bigger in a shallow container. So a shallow container is more likely to create root issues due to overwatering then a tall container. This is also why nursery soil is not an issue in a nursery container but is not a good soil for a shallow bosnai container.
this link explains it better than I can
How to choose the right pot for your plant [Why pot shape & size matters. A lot.] — Greenhouse Studio
Choosing a pot for your plant may seem like it’s only a matter of aesthetics, but the size and shape of your planter along with the soil/potting mix you choose has a direct result on the amount of available water for your plant. If you’re serious about growing your potted plants as successfully as
www.greenhousestudio.co
Adamski77
Shohin
One follow up question on this one... have similar situation as one of my pines was in another place last year and was not decandled. Is it still ok to reduce the buds now in spring before they really push... or rather leave it to decandling timing in July?
D
Deleted member 32750
Guest
Yes, you should be ok the remove them now. You can do it really any time after bud set in fall up to the spring when they really start pushing growth.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Hmm…. Just a couple thoughts…
imho. If one is still looking for ramification on a double flush pine, reduce multiple bud clusters to two buds in spring and in fall. Leaving two buds creates more needle mass throughout the tree, helping bring down the needle length/internode over time and increases ramification. I take off the additional buds when they expand enough that it is safe to remove without damaging the remaining bud. Leave two lateral buds if possible.
This practice will also help create backbudding if one selectively leaves photosynthetically active needles of different seasons and past year flushes when needle plucking.
This is opposed to needle plucking all former year needles to make a tree look more finished (a common miscue imho) when it’s not actually a tree in refinement. This practice can be done to one branch that is still in development or all… as in this case.
The result is more shoots in fall to select from if one desires, less overall energy to each branch, helping reduce candle neck/internodes and needle size over time.
I often tell myself when considering touching a double flush pine, “needle plucking selectively helps distribute energy, while decandling, stops growth.”
Sometimes it’s just not the best thing for developing a tree to decandle. It depends on the situation.
cheers
DSD sends
imho. If one is still looking for ramification on a double flush pine, reduce multiple bud clusters to two buds in spring and in fall. Leaving two buds creates more needle mass throughout the tree, helping bring down the needle length/internode over time and increases ramification. I take off the additional buds when they expand enough that it is safe to remove without damaging the remaining bud. Leave two lateral buds if possible.
This practice will also help create backbudding if one selectively leaves photosynthetically active needles of different seasons and past year flushes when needle plucking.
This is opposed to needle plucking all former year needles to make a tree look more finished (a common miscue imho) when it’s not actually a tree in refinement. This practice can be done to one branch that is still in development or all… as in this case.
The result is more shoots in fall to select from if one desires, less overall energy to each branch, helping reduce candle neck/internodes and needle size over time.
I often tell myself when considering touching a double flush pine, “needle plucking selectively helps distribute energy, while decandling, stops growth.”
Sometimes it’s just not the best thing for developing a tree to decandle. It depends on the situation.
cheers
DSD sends
D
Deleted member 32750
Guest
A few comments. Decandling is a reliable ramification technique for healthy double flush pines and it does not stop growth. It encourages new balanced and proportional growth.
Wiring, fertilization, and needle plucking in fall will encourage back buds. You dont necessarily need old needles for back budding to occur. It can and does happen on wood in young trees that are not barked over.
Energy is balanced over a number of years of employing a combination of decandling and needle plucking.
Wiring, fertilization, and needle plucking in fall will encourage back buds. You dont necessarily need old needles for back budding to occur. It can and does happen on wood in young trees that are not barked over.
Energy is balanced over a number of years of employing a combination of decandling and needle plucking.
