Yashu’s another JBP progression thread.

[yashu]

I’m hoping to gather a little advice/help at the conclusion of this first post so keep that in mind. This tree was acquired as a haggle with a local nursery near the end of last season. It was potted in a large, fairly nice, blue pot as a seedling apparently with 3 other trees. By the time I acquired it one had either died or otherwise been removed. The root mass was rock hard and there was very little water penetration from traditional watering so I was soaking/submerging the pot to water the trees. There was almost no growth and I was told the tree had not pushed candles in at least a couple years
I picked up a bristlecone at the same time but that’s another story. I made the decision to de-pot, break the individual plants apart and re-pot into nursery cans. One I gave to a friend, one went into the ground and I kept the last one in a nursery can to work on. I haven’t checked up on the one I gave away, the one that went into the ground was killed almost instantly by a hard freeze and I caught the other one in the nursery can mid freeze and moved it to a deep set window box in the warehouse where I work. Believe it or not this saved the tree. The warehouse is situated over the water on a pier in Portland, Maine that has open drains in the floor (it’s a fish processing area with lots of outside air exchange) so the temps stayed around 45 to 55 but the conditions were otherwise moist and “coastal”. Over the winter I slowly worked a pretty severe bend into the otherwise straight and boring trunk and at the end of April I pruned the tree of unneeded limbs and styled the remaining branches into a semi-cascade. The tree was damaged by the freeze last fall, many needles suffered so I was not sure how it would pull through what I had done but now it is pushing candles and is showing some positive signs of vigor.
I’m now left with the question as to how to handle the candles. Should I decandle everything in late June as normal or is there another way to handle a tree where the vigor is somewhat questionable. This is my first Japanese Black Pine so any input is welcome. Thanks!!!

 

[Dav4]

Generally speaking, you shouldn't de-candle a weak tree. So, is your tree truly weak? Honestly, only you can be the judge of that and you've got until late June to decide. Fwiw, I see some far and elongating candles on your tree. De-candle or not, I'd be feeding this one heavily right now.

 

[yashu]

Generally speaking, you shouldn't de-candle a weak tree. So, is your tree truly weak? Honestly, only you can be the judge of that and you've got until late June to decide. Fwiw, I see some far and elongating candles on your tree. De-candle or not, I'd be feeding this one heavily right now.

Thanks @Dav4 , I guess being new to the species I’m not sure if it’s “truly weak”. Is it correct to assume that elongating candles would only occur with vigor? It is getting the works with both BioGold and some Osmacote right now.

 

[yashu]

My concern is that with the present foliage in a beat up state that there may not be enough healthy needle material to photosynthesize the energy needed to push the second flush of buds. Is this worry unnecessary?

 

[Dav4]

My concern is that with the present foliage in a beat up state that there may not be enough healthy needle material to photosynthesize the energy needed to push the second flush of buds. Is this worry unnecessary?

The condition of the old needles is only part of the story. The real state of vigor of the tree will be apparent by how strong the current crop of candles grow. If they grow strongly, I'd decandle. If not, I'd wait.

 

[yashu]

Well, I’ve got a month to see how things progress…

 

[River's Edge]

Since acquiring the tree you have repotted it, wired and bent it over the past say eight months. Under these circumstances I would allow the tree to recover and gain strength for the coming season. It will respond to decandling better when it is healthier and that will place you further along than if you further weaken the tree.

 

[yashu]

Since acquiring the tree you have repotted it, wired and bent it over the past say eight months. Under these circumstances I would allow the tree to recover and gain strength for the coming season. It will respond to decandling better when it is healthier and that will place you further along than if you further weaken the tree.

Appreciate your input. How should I handle elongating candles then? Just leave it alone? Treat as single flush pine?

I realize I did a lot to it already. I honestly didn’t believe it would survive the winter so I used it to practice with the intent of picking up several seedlings this spring but then it started pushing candles.

 

[Ryceman3]

You can break/pinch the longer candles to bring them back in line with the rest of the tree if you don’t want to decandle this year. Similar to the process used for say Scots Pine and some other single flush pines. This will help to even out energy distribution on the tree.

 

[River's Edge]

Appreciate your input. How should I handle elongating candles then? Just leave it alone? Treat as single flush pine?

I realize I did a lot to it already. I honestly didn’t believe it would survive the winter so I used it to practice with the intent of picking up several seedlings this spring but then it started pushing candles.

Leave the candles grow out that is how you strengthen a tree. The additional needles provide more photosynthesis. You can always cut back and create bud back in future growing seasons. This is a young tree in training that will benefit from thickening various sections of the trunk, thickening primary and secondary branches to suit their position on the trunk. Lots of growing still left to do before focussing on refinement.
Increasing the foliage at this point means allowing the candles to extend in order to strengthen the tree so it responds properly when cut back.
I would not advise decandling or cutting off part of the candles. But, many feel that they must continually work the tree to progress. I do not believe that is the best practice. It is very common to allow trees to grow out for a year or two during development and training.

 

[yashu]

You can break/pinch the longer candles to bring them back in line with the rest of the tree if you don’t want to decandle this year. Similar to the process used for say Scots Pine and some other single flush pines. This will help to even out energy distribution on the tree.

I understand the technique, how to perform it and the reasons for performing it, I just don’t know if said technique is proper with the tree in its current state.

 

[yashu]

Leave the candles grow out that is how you strengthen a tree. The additional needles provide more photosynthesis. You can always cut back and create bud back in future growing seasons. This is a young tree in training that will benefit from thickening various sections of the trunk, thickening primary and secondary branches to suit their position on the trunk. Lots of growing still left to do before focussing on refinement.
Increasing the foliage at this point means allowing the candles to extend in order to strengthen the tree so it responds properly when cut back.
I would not advise decandling or cutting off part of the candles. But, many feel that they must continually work the tree to progress. I do not believe that is the best practice. It is very common to allow trees to grow out for a year or two during development and training.

This makes sense to me and seems like the logical progression at this time.

I appreciate all the posts. I think for now I’ll let it be and pass on decandling or candle pruning. I’ll consider shoot selection in the fall. If I’m lucky that side shoot on the right will gain some vigor and lend itself to be a sacrifice to thicken the base.

 

[Scorpius]

Let it grow this year. Asses the tree next year.

 

[Ryceman3]

I understand the technique, how to perform it and the reasons for performing it, I just don’t know if said technique is proper with the tree in its current state.

OK… that’s easy then. Leave it.
As @River's Edge says (quite rightly) there is nothing wrong with leaving your tree to just be, particularly on such a young tree. It can only result in added strength assuming it is watered and fed.
The other, other option is to let the candles “harden off” then cut back into them in late summer, and induce budding down the length of the long candle for growth next spring… but I think leaving it alone might be your best bet.
Keep it simple.

 

[yashu]

Update:
Left the candles, all but one that for some reason was just exploding with growth so I clipped it with hopes to redistribute the energy elsewhere in the tree. Removed the wire from the trunk (which has added a little girth!) and just left the one guy wire and have been fertilizing the holy heck out of it. Seems to be responding nicely. I’m excited to see the result of decandling next season

 

[yashu]

Not really sure what to do with that small first branch. It ended up developing a bunch of back budding so I don’t want to waste it if there’s a possibility of doing something cool with it. It was coming out the right side as you can see in previous pictures but I ended up bending it across the front (faux pas I know) because it bothered me hanging out there in the opposite direction of the movement of the rest of the tree.

Ideas?

 

[Firstflush]

Let it run as a sacrificial branch to girth up the trunk is one idea.
When you want to take it off, the chop will be hidden from the front view.

 

[yashu]

A little more work on the trunk before it gets too thick… now let’s see if I killed it I think (hope) I’m pretty safe. The tree is showing plenty of vigor and the trunk is still reasonably pliable.

 

[Shogun610]

A little more work on the trunk before it gets too thick… now let’s see if I killed it I think (hope) I’m pretty safe. The tree is showing plenty of vigor and the trunk is still reasonably pliable. View attachment 450410

I think it was a nice attempt and I hope you didn’t try and bend it too hard.. usually doing this work I like to listen very closely to hear how many fibers are stretching or snapping. But as you know big bends are gradual. Next bend on this , I would let it recover for a season. You’ll want to take that trunk and bend it even more acutely and twist to right the “U” leaves a openeingnbutnifnyou an add and inverse bend . Jut food for thought .. when you do the next bend .. use raffia

 

[yashu]

I think it was a nice attempt and I hope you didn’t try and bend it too hard.. usually doing this work I like to listen very closely to hear how many fibers are stretching or snapping. But as you know big bends are gradual. Next bend on this , I would let it recover for a season. You’ll want to take that trunk and bend it even more acutely and twist to right the “U” leaves a openeingnbutnifnyou an add and inverse bend . Jut food for thought .. when you do the next bend .. use raffia

The bend was done slowly and there was no cracking at all but I suspect plenty of stretching. No tears in the cambium were apparent, I’ll keep watch over the next few days for any pitch weeping from the bends. It really is still quite flexible and I want to get this bend done before the wood really hardens up. I guess I’m figuring this for a 3 stage process as the first stage was the initial bend and this is the second stage, further tightening the big bend and creating an angle change in the lower trunk. The final stage will be tightening the big bend so the tree folds back on itself. Timing that last step seems like a tough call. I’d like to try to do it while there’s still some flex to the wood but I’d also want to be sure it has some solid recovery time. Furthermore, I’d like to decandle next season if the tree shows vigor in the coming spring because I want to keep this tree on the smaller size and for that I’m looking for more ramification. Since that will be my insult for next season I’m looking at finishing the bend in 2024. Is this too much over the next couple/few years? The way I’m approaching it is to take my cues from the tree and if it continues to show vigor I’ll maintain the schedule.