Yamadori Scots Pine

[Paulpash]

Let the backbuds establish this year - it will be a gradual process building them up over a few seasons - they're not strong enough to sustain the tree on their own yet. I'd cut back this year's candles by half in late August / September. This will force more energy into those backbuds, promote more of them and keep the tree vigorous for next year. After that it'll be by observation how much of the new candles you remove - by looking at the vigour of those inner buds (their extension during candle push) as well as overall health of the tree. You gradually want to remove more from the end of the branch as the inner stuff gets stronger.

Sometimes it's a good idea to photograph the buds on the branch so that you have a visual record to inform how much to cut back and its effects further back.

I agree it needs an angle change, eg if your first bend is right, angle the trunk left. Get it up on a turntable with some wedges under it and play around with the best front and trunk orientation. Take a photo and mark the best "front". You can use a piece of white cloth to visualise how the trunk will look without certain branches.

Hope this helps.

 

[AndyJ]

Brilliant thanks Paul. I’ll take some more detailed photographs and keep them as a record to compare back to. I might have a play around with some ideas for planting angles now way before replanting time next year. Good idea ref the white cloth - I’ll try that too.

Thanks again everyone - really appreciate everyone’s help

 

[TomB]

Just in case anyone thinks Paul and I are giving conflicting advice - we’re actually saying the same kind of things for the same reasons - just I’m a little more aggressive IF the tree has sufficient vigour. ‘It depends’ as they say

 

[AndyJ]

Just in case anyone thinks Paul and I are giving conflicting advice - we’re actually saying the same kind of things for the same reasons - just I’m a little more aggressive IF the tree has sufficient vigour. ‘It depends’ as they say

Gotcha - thanks for clarifying Tom

 

[Paulpash]

Just in case anyone thinks Paul and I are giving conflicting advice - we’re actually saying the same kind of things for the same reasons - just I’m a little more aggressive IF the tree has sufficient vigour. ‘It depends’ as they say

I do tend to be conservative & patient. Usually I err on the side of caution because I've invested a lot of time (probably) growing it from humble beginnings. I don't buy finished trees any more - it's just a lot more satisfying for me to create my own image. Tom really hit the nail on the head with capitalising "IF" - so much is reliant on observation and experience that it's very difficult to quantify many of the most important things online - vigour, health, timing, quantity. The very best I can do is to teach someone to use their eyes and brain and learn by working the tree and noting its response. Tom is really good at this and I regard his opinion and bonsai work highly.

 

[sorce]

I....thought for a second it was already 2021, when you SAID you were going to reassess!

Three reasons I wouldn't have removed those candles.
It needs them outright for energy.
Removing them now, in the season, and at it's health level, won't cause enough backbudding.
There is no design use for 2's at the end of them branches.

See ya in 2022! Lol! But seriously.

I don't know of you are in a wheelchair like that other engine building feller, but don't go playing time machine in yours!

This tree has some potential. Let's keep the s at the end of that "has" not a d.

Sorce

 

[AndyJ]

I....thought for a second it was already 2021, when you SAID you were going to reassess!

Three reasons I wouldn't have removed those candles.
It needs them outright for energy.
Removing them now, in the season, and at it's health level, won't cause enough backbudding.
There is no design use for 2's at the end of them branches.

See ya in 2022! Lol! But seriously.

I don't know of you are in a wheelchair like that other engine building feller, but don't go playing time machine in yours!

This tree has some potential. Let's keep the s at the end of that "has" not a d.

Sorce

Thanks Sorce. Definitely going to go slow with this one and not cut those candles yet! Thanks for the vote of confidence and no, no time machine for me!

 

[AndyJ]

Let the backbuds establish this year - it will be a gradual process building them up over a few seasons - they're not strong enough to sustain the tree on their own yet. I'd cut back this year's candles by half in late August / September. This will force more energy into those backbuds, promote more of them and keep the tree vigorous for next year. After that it'll be by observation how much of the new candles you remove - by looking at the vigour of those inner buds (their extension during candle push) as well as overall health of the tree. You gradually want to remove more from the end of the branch as the inner stuff gets stronger.

Sometimes it's a good idea to photograph the buds on the branch so that you have a visual record to inform how much to cut back and its effects further back.

I agree it needs an angle change, eg if your first bend is right, angle the trunk left. Get it up on a turntable with some wedges under it and play around with the best front and trunk orientation. Take a photo and mark the best "front". You can use a piece of white cloth to visualise how the trunk will look without certain branches.

Hope this helps.

Hey folks. @Paulpash just been out to look at my tree and the candles are all growing really well - some out to a couple of inches. Those little buds on the inner branches have hardly moved though. If I cut the candles back in late August, will that give those little buds time to grow out this year? Also, I thought you cut this year‘s candle growth back to just a couple of pairs of needles in late August; does just cutting the candle in half produce a different response? For example, generally with Scots Pines, what would result if I cut all candles in half now to balance growth all over the tree? Would those smaller inner buds grow out by the end of this year?

Hope you don’t mind me coming back on this!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Cutting this years shoots in half, or back to a couple needles doesn't get much back budding in scots pines.
I'm cutting the whole shoots off this year.

Bud removal in winter, and with strong ones again in spring, because mine tend to make a couple extra throughout winter.

 

[Paulpash]

Hey folks. @Paulpash just been out to look at my tree and the candles are all growing really well - some out to a couple of inches. Those little buds on the inner branches have hardly moved though. If I cut the candles back in late August, will that give those little buds time to grow out this year? Also, I thought you cut this year‘s candle growth back to just a couple of pairs of needles in late August; does just cutting the candle in half produce a different response? For example, generally with Scots Pines, what would result if I cut all candles in half now to balance growth all over the tree? Would those smaller inner buds grow out by the end of this year?

Hope you don’t mind me coming back on this!

Need pics to constructively comment. One flush pines like Scots and Mugo can't "give those little buds time to grow out this year". After the candles have extended that's all folks for this year. If your aim is to move those inner buds on next year then cut back all this year's growth in late July / early August.

 

[Waldo]

Nice looking tree Andy. Nice movement and I like your initial styling. Your wiring doesn't bother me at all. Looks a lot like my wiring. Your getting the tree to do what you want it to do and I don't see that you are doing it any harm. Would enjoy seeing progression of your tree. looks like a lot of potential there. Good luck with it.

 

[AndyJ]

Cutting this years shoots in half, or back to a couple needles doesn't get much back budding in scots pines.
I'm cutting the whole shoots off this year.

Bud removal in winter, and with strong ones again in spring, because mine tend to make a couple extra throughout winter.

Not sure I actually agree with you there Wires. In late August I cut back all candles on this pine and you can see how it responded the following year!

 

[AndyJ]

Need pics to constructively comment. One flush pines like Scots and Mugo can't "give those little buds time to grow out this year". After the candles have extended that's all folks for this year. If your aim is to move those inner buds on next year then cut back all this year's growth in late July / early August.

Thanks @Paulpash Have taken a few more photos today - hope these make sense and you can see where I’m confused! There are three pictures at the end that show these small shoots that I want to develop and, eventually cut back to. Should I reduce the candles on those branches where there are these shoots on the inside in order to push energy to the smaller shoots? Do I leave everything until late August and cutback all candles (except these small ones) to 3 or 4 pairs of needles as @TomB advised me to do on my other pine tree.

Thanks again folks!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Not sure I actually agree with you there Wires. In late August I cut back all candles on this pine and you can see how it responded the following year!

View attachment 305797View attachment 305800

I have four that respond in a similar matter, especially the Norsk Type, but I own 20+ regular scots that don't back bud like that when I only cut half of the shoot off. It seems to be an unreliable technique. So this year I'm trying the more general concensus of cutting the whole shoot.

 

[AndyJ]

I have four that respond in a similar matter, especially the Norsk Type, but I own 20+ regular scots that don't back bud like that when I only cut half of the shoot off. It seems to be an unreliable technique. So this year I'm trying the more general concensus of cutting the whole shoot.

Ok fair enough! Be good to see / hear how yours respond this / next tear

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I might have done it too soon though @AndyJ ! I've been only playing with them for three or four years. I did notice that they can potentially double fush if you'd cut the shoots in half just before the needles harden off. That was my first try, and the response was pretty much the same in every cultivar. Can't recommend it though ;-)

 

[Paulpash]

Thanks @Paulpash Have taken a few more photos today - hope these make sense and you can see where I’m confused! There are three pictures at the end that show these small shoots that I want to develop and, eventually cut back to. Should I reduce the candles on those branches where there are these shoots on the inside in order to push energy to the smaller shoots? Do I leave everything until late August and cutback all candles (except these small ones) to 3 or 4 pairs of needles as @TomB advised me to do on my other pine tree.

Thanks again folks!

View attachment 305802View attachment 305803View attachment 305804View attachment 305805View attachment 305806View attachment 305807View attachment 305808

Yeah cut the long ones back to 3-4 pairs in late August & leave the weak. Should be fine. Looks a strong push. What's the root mass like? If it's big this will be a slow job reducing it & difficult to advise.

 

[AndyJ]

Yeah cut the long ones back to 3-4 pairs in late August & leave the weak. Should be fine. Looks a strong push. What's the root mass like? If it's big this will be a slow job reducing it & difficult to advise.

Thanks @Paulpash I’ll leave all alone until late August now then and then cut back. Should give me some back budding all over the tree if I do that won’t it? Haven’t had it out of the pot since I bought it. Was going to repot this year but earlier advise on this thread advised against it so I’m waiting until next year. That will be a new learning curve! Probably lift it and to a HBR

 

[Paulpash]

Thanks @Paulpash I’ll leave all alone until late August now then and then cut back. Should give me some back budding all over the tree if I do that won’t it? Haven’t had it out of the pot since I bought it. Was going to repot this year but earlier advise on this thread advised against it so I’m waiting until next year. That will be a new learning curve! Probably lift it and to a HBR

My advice on any root work on pines is to be very conservative and spread it over multiple seasons. Try and fold roots (if they are flexible enough) rather than cut if the aim is to get it in a smaller container. Be guided on the strength of the tree, not on your own timescale. In other words, skip a year or two if it appears weak.

 

[AndyJ]

Back again folks! I have a question about wiring new growth on yamadori pines (although I guess it could relate to any pine actually).

When should I start wiring new growth on my pine that I want to keep? It’s obviously still growing at the moment so its not something I do now. Is the ideal time to wire this years growth in autumn this year? Or doesn’t it really matter with pines given their flexibility?

Thanks all