yamadori branch placement

[brewmeister83]

Hi all, welcome to my first post!

Anyway, I just got seriously started in bonsai the end of last year, and although I'm working on a few pre-bonsai and starter material (all Asian plants), I love the idea of finding big and gnarled trunks out in the woods where I live to use. So I was walking on a friend's farm the other day and in the edge of an old corn field right next to a stone wall I spotted this...

(Massive Asian Bittersweet Vine (Celastrus orbiculatas) 4' from base to cut on main branch, and an 8-10" nebari showing above ground)

Needless to say I loved the gnarled roots, the fissured bark, and the patches of dead wood where it had been hit by farm equipment and ponies in the past, and since it's early spring and the buds were barely starting to swell I got a saw and chopped it down to manageable size. I'm planning on reducing the root mass over the course of the season and digging it up in the fall (it may sound rushed for a plant this big, but these things grow super fast where I live and put out root like nobody's business).

Now the reason for this post is because I have no clue what to do for branch placement once it buds back and starts throwing off shoots. I feel I should keep the slanting nature of the plant once I get it into a training box so I can show off those amazing roots - but I've always been wary of slanting style bonsai, and I was wondering if anyone could give me their opinion on what they think. Here's a couple of virtual pics I did using the "worst case scenario" where each branch cut only produced one or two new shoots. Am I on target or completely missing it? Let me know what you think.


(10 Years down the road w/ primary and secondary branching)

(Summer growth - leaves are to scale)

(In fall w/ berries)

 

[Poink88]

Welcome to B-Nut!

I'd probably do this...
View attachment 32693

 

[davetree]

Vine bonsai are difficult to ramify. Just do a google search on images of vine bonsai and you will see what I mean. They may also require special techniques for pruning. Might be a tough bonsai for a beginner, or anyone, for that matter.

 

[rockm]

What a coincidence. I've got my eye on an old bittersweet vine in the woods too--about the same size and character.

Branch placement is not really a consideration at this point. Getting the plant out alive and keeping it that way for the next year is.

The branch structure can be much like a deciduous tree, with the same sense used for elms. Treat the trunk design like you would a deciduous tree. You also might take a look in Nick Lenz' "Bonsai From the Wild." There is a picture of collected bittersweet that was developed to look like a deciduous tree. In it's leafless state it works very well--the scattering of yellow berries adds a lot of interest that typical deciduous trees don't have.

I don't think this species requires such a delicate collection. I'm planning to dig mine out all at once--when it gets warm enough to get it done Lenz advises rubbing off new shoots coming from the trunk base to channel energy further up the trunk.

And, having worked with wisteria, I agree vines can take a bit more effort to get a solid branch structure in place, however, vigorous vines like bittersweet are prolific growers and can thicken branching quicker than a lot of deciduous species.

 

[Dan W.]

Brewmeister, I think you have a dang good handle on design, especially for a beginner! The vine looks like it will be fun to work with. Harder to ramify, but great bark and character as you said. Good luck!

 

[Poink88]

Wow nice virt! Good job!!! I should delete mine now. LOL

Kidding aside, good luck with it and hope you show us what it becomes.

 

[Dan W.]

Welcome to the nut house by the way!

 

[brewmeister83]

Branch placement is not really a consideration at this point. Getting the plant out alive and keeping it that way for the next year is.

The branch structure can be much like a deciduous tree, with the same sense used for elms. Treat the trunk design like you would a deciduous tree. You also might take a look in Nick Lenz' "Bonsai From the Wild." There is a picture of collected bittersweet that was developed to look like a deciduous tree.

Thanks for the response! I have read Lenz, which is what gave me inspiration when I saw this vine. I agree that priority one is getting the plant out of the ground and keeping it healthy, but I was fooling around with designs so I have a game plan once it's ready to be worked.

That said, I've noticed with bittersweet that the 1st to 2nd years growth is still somewhat flexible and could probably take extreme wiring, but the 3-5 year old stuff breaks if you put any amount of pressure on it to create some of these bends, and by 10 years - forget it, it's too thick! (this experience is just based on having to clear the stuff from my yard) So I'm thinking that I should loose wire my primaries this year when they're still forgiving enough to take some dramatic bends, wait 3-5 years for them to thicken and set shape then cut them back and start the process over for the secondaries and tertiaries.

I'm banking on it's quick growth rate to thicken quickly once its comfy and being fed - I can only imagine the growth rate of this stuff on fertilizer!

 

[catfish chapstick]

Nice virt, I hope you can get it to do that. It's likely that you can.

 

[rockm]

"So I'm thinking that I should loose wire my primaries this year when they're still forgiving enough to take some dramatic bends, wait 3-5 years for them to thicken and set shape then cut them back and start the process over for the secondaries and tertiaries."

Cut and grow is another way to approach branching.

Wiring bends is mostly for conifers That's because you mostly have to work with what foliage is available with conifers. It's very different with deciduous material. More dramatic branching can be created by allowing branches to grow out, then cutting them back hard. I believe the tree in Lenz' book was created that way.

 

[JudyB]

welcome brew, you have a good eye to begin with, and mad virt skillz.
If you've been reading books as you appear to, then it's just a matter of applying the knowledge, going slowly till the tree is stable, and a pinch of luck.
Good luck with it, and keep us posted.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

You have potential there but I think it a bit premature to be working on the design of the branches. It will pop buds where ever the heck it wants to. You need to, as said above, get the thing dug up and living for at least a year in some kind of container.

By the end of that year you'll have some idea as to what branches you'll have to work with, start designing then.