Wrong Species Sent to Me from Tennessee Wholesale Nursery... On Purpose...

[barguy8194]

Once again... the main point of this post was, “hey this kinda shitty thing happened. What do i do with these Virginia pines now?”

Not, “this shitty thing happened, let’s have a bitch fest about the nursery and/or the whose fault it was.”

 

[sorce]

My thought? If you sell retail, have your customer service match. If you want to have the customer service to match wholesale, then sell wholesale. Not retail.

I agree.

I would make them some of the dopest trees that ever were.
No sense being upset, since the trees will feel that negative energy.

Take it as a plus!

Maybe root over rock em since they're bare.

Sorce

 

[Orion_metalhead]

If you have a pitch pine grove locally... why order pitch pine online? Youll get far superb pitch pines from the grove..

Regardless, your virginia pines look healthy at least, and im sure youll enjoy them much more than nasty attitudes from that seller.

 

[barguy8194]

If you have a pitch pine grove locally... why order pitch pine online? Youll get far superb pitch pines from the grove..

There aren't any groves within an hour's drive of me... it's a bit of a stretch to get there. Not too bad, and I'll probably end up making that trip now. I was hoping to save some driving time, honestly, and I'm still a newbie at Bonsai, so I really just wanted some nursery trees in the event that I might end up killing them. For some reason I think I'd feel way less crappy about myself if I killed nursery trees than if I dug up wild trees from their homes just to bring them home and murder them... lol.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Fair enough. You can grow from seeds if you want. Pitch pine are easy to germinate.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@barguy8194
You are the White Mountains of New Hampshire, USDA zone 4, this is a short summer growing season. If you have less than 100 days between last frost of Spring and first frost of Autumn, I would NOT decandle the Virginia Pine as one would a JBP or JRP. Both @Adair M & @Brian Van Fleet who recommended decandling, live in much milder climates, zone 7 or zone 8, with nice long summers over 150 day long growing seasons. I think Brian is over 200 day growing season. Decandling only works in long summer climates, such as Japan, Memphis & Atlanta. I would recommend treating your Virginia pine as you would a Pinus sylvestris, Scots pine, or mugo, or Jack pine. The Virginia pine is technically in the same subgroup as Pinus banksiana, Jack pine, and Pinus contorta, the Lodgepole pines & Shore Pines. If you already have experience with either of its relative, they should be your guide. I treat my Jack pines more or less the same as I treat Mugo pines. Basically, everything is done after the summer solstice, most pruning and repotting and wiring is done in August (or at least that is when I do my work). For personal reasons, August is when I have time, and is when I repot. I have cool summers, with an average of fewer than 10 day over 90 F (+32 C), which is a relatively cool summer. I would assume in the White Mountains, your summers are similar.

I do find P. banksiana will back bud on older wood to some degree, best backbudding is on wood less than 10 years old, but I have had random buds sprout on older wood. Not real reliable, but it does happen. I would assume P. virginiana is similar.

I don't know if they are found near you, but P. banksiana seems a decent pine for bonsai once you get past collection & that first potting up from wild collection. They are difficult to collect successfully. Not impossible, but nobody has a 90% or better success rate for collecting them. 25% to 50% success seems to be "good success rate" with Jack pines. But if you have them near you, they have exceptional winter hardiness. They withstand incredible cold & exposed settings. I don't even take mine off the bonsai bench for the winter. They do fine exposed to all the elements. From seed and seedlings, they seem pretty similar to the growth rates of P. sylvestris and other pines.

 

[Adair M]

@barguy8194
You are the White Mountains of New Hampshire, USDA zone 4, this is a short summer growing season. If you have less than 100 days between last frost of Spring and first frost of Autumn, I would NOT decandle the Virginia Pine as one would a JBP or JRP. Both @Adair M & @Brian Van Fleet who recommended decandling, live in much milder climates, zone 7 or zone 8, with nice long summers over 150 day long growing seasons. I think Brian is over 200 day growing season. Decandling only works in long summer climates, such as Japan, Memphis & Atlanta. I would recommend treating your Virginia pine as you would a Pinus sylvestris, Scots pine, or mugo, or Jack pine. The Virginia pine is technically in the same subgroup as Pinus banksiana, Jack pine, and Pinus contorta, the Lodgepole pines & Shore Pines. If you already have experience with either of its relative, they should be your guide. I treat my Jack pines more or less the same as I treat Mugo pines. Basically, everything is done after the summer solstice, most pruning and repotting and wiring is done in August (or at least that is when I do my work). For personal reasons, August is when I have time, and is when I repot. I have cool summers, with an average of fewer than 10 day over 90 F (+32 C), which is a relatively cool summer. I would assume in the White Mountains, your summers are similar.

I do find P. banksiana will back bud on older wood to some degree, best backbudding is on wood less than 10 years old, but I have had random buds sprout on older wood. Not real reliable, but it does happen. I would assume P. virginiana is similar.

I don't know if they are found near you, but P. banksiana seems a decent pine for bonsai once you get past collection & that first potting up from wild collection. They are difficult to collect successfully. Not impossible, but nobody has a 90% or better success rate for collecting them. 25% to 50% success seems to be "good success rate" with Jack pines. But if you have them near you, they have exceptional winter hardiness. They withstand incredible cold & exposed settings. I don't even take mine off the bonsai bench for the winter. They do fine exposed to all the elements. From seed and seedlings, they seem pretty similar to the growth rates of P. sylvestris and other pines.

That’s something to consider, Leo. I did not check to see where the OP lived. Virginia Pine are native around here, and they can be decandled. I’m not familiar with growing anything in New Hampshire!

 

[barguy8194]

@barguy8194
You are the White Mountains of New Hampshire, USDA zone 4, this is a short summer growing season. If you have less than 100 days between last frost of Spring and first frost of Autumn, I would NOT decandle the Virginia Pine as one would a JBP or JRP.

Thanks for the advice, @Leo in N E Illinois !

Also, as far as I know, jack pine isn’t native to NH. I only ever see strobus and resinosa near me, (with possibly one rigida down the street from me... I’m tempted to ask my neighbor to let me try air layering it, but it’s the only one I have found nearby) and there are pitch pines within two hours’ drive. There’s a large pine barren near Ossipee, NH, and there’s actually an old growth pitch pine stand in White Lake State Park, with tall, straight trunks that are rare in pitch pine these days. That’s more than two hours away from me, though.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Yes, it is not something that leaps to mind right away. I seldom decandle my JBP because my summers are so short. I have to decandle before June 15, and often candles have not really started growing yet. Some years I have good growth by then, but seldom. So most years my JBP get treated as single flush pines.

 

[barguy8194]

Yes, it is not something that leaps to mind right away. I seldom decandle my JBP because my summers are so short. I have to decandle before June 15, and often candles have not really started growing yet. Some years I have good growth by then, but seldom. So most years my JBP get treated as single flush pines.

If I hadn’t just gotten them bare rooted and potted them, this might be a good year for decandling. It’s been an unusually warm winter, and an unusually warm spring. We already have maple buds opening, which is 2-3 weeks early for us.
But... just got them this year... they’re going to grow untouched in deep pots this year, regardless.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thanks for the advice, @Leo in N E Illinois !

Also, as far as I know, jack pine isn’t native to NH. I only ever see strobus and resinosa near me, (with possibly one rigida down the street from me... I’m tempted to ask my neighbor to let me try air layering it, but it’s the only one I have found nearby) and there are pitch pines within two hours’ drive. There’s a large pine barren near Ossipee, NH, and there’s actually an old growth pitch pine stand in White Lake State Park, with tall, straight trunks that are rare in pitch pine these days. That’s more than two hours away from me, though.

Prior to 1491, the pitch pine stand along the east coast of North America were tall straight trunks. Those forests were completely clear cut for British, to a lesser degree French, and possibly some Spanish logging, and later what became USA shipbuilding. The "Pine Barrens" are a man-made, or man influenced second growth habitat that developed after the initial clear cutting of the old growth forests. The tall pitch pines were favorite for maritime construction because of the high pitch content. Another tree that became scarce that used to be common before 1491 is Chamaecyparis thyoides - the Atlantic white cedar. Now a rarely seen tree that was also prised for its lumber. Enjoy the old growth stand in White Lake SP.

So the second growth pitch pines, grew all contorted and stunted because soil erosion, fire and other changes that happened after the old growth forests were cut, these changes made the habitat unsuitable for growing tall straight tree. When planted in plantations, pitch pine does produce tall straight trees, especially if there is irrigation during drought years, when the trunks are young. We would not know except by studying the old growth stands and then reading diaries of early settlers to the east coast. Fascinating book, 1491 by Charles C. Mann

 

[barguy8194]

Prior to 1491, the pitch pine stand along the east coast of North America were tall straight trunks. Those forests were completely clear cut for British, to a lesser degree French, and possibly some Spanish logging, and later what became USA shipbuilding. The "Pine Barrens" are a man-made, or man influenced second growth habitat that developed after the initial clear cutting of the old growth forests. The tall pitch pines were favorite for maritime construction because of the high pitch content. Another tree that became scarce that used to be common before 1491 is Chamaecyparis thyoides - the Atlantic white cedar. Now a rarely seen tree that was also prised for its lumber. Enjoy the old growth stand in White Lake SP.

So the second growth pitch pines, grew all contorted and stunted because soil erosion, fire and other changes that happened after the old growth forests were cut, these changes made the habitat unsuitable for growing tall straight tree. When planted in plantations, pitch pine does produce tall straight trees, especially if there is irrigation during drought years, when the trunks are young. We would not know except by studying the old growth stands and then reading diaries of early settlers to the east coast. Fascinating book, 1491 by Charles C. Mann

I love that history! I knew the reason for the gnarly looking pitch pines was that they were all logged off by colonists, but didn’t know all the specifics.
I can’t wait for blight resistant American chestnuts to come on the scene (not for bonsai, I’ve heard they kinda suck for our purposes, but just to see them).
My single time travel wish would be just to go back and see what an undisturbed American east coast forest looked like...

 

[barguy8194]

In other news... did some driving around with the kiddos today (6 and 7 years old... they thought the tree collecting was fun, but the hours in the car got old quick). Managed to come home with one pitch pine and one tamarack. Wish I could have gotten more but I’m definitely going to have to scope better areas when it gets a little warmer. It’s been such a weird winter that some trees are popping buds, while others a hundred yards away are still in froze soil.

 

[tanlu]

I’m late to comment, but felt motivated to share my two cents about Tennessee Wholesale Nursery. I also tried ordering 2 pitch pines from them in 2020 and they arrived bare rooted and dead. I believe they were actually pitch pines, but what’s the point of selling barerooted trees if they’re certain to arrived dead? It took me a very long time to finally get them to respond to my emails and calls. They told me the selling trees barerooted is their policy, which is just another way of saying “buy at your own risk.” To me that says a lot about the vendor. I would caution anyone who is thinking of purchasing from them. I don’t agree with Source’s sentiment about all wholesalers being this way. I’ve dealt with many wholesale nurseries over the years who were honest and responsive to customers. I urge anyone reading this thread to do themselves a favor and steer clear of Tennessee Wholesale Nursery, also called “TN Nursery.”

 

[rusticana]

So... I bought two pitch pines from Tennessee Wholesale Nursery online. What I received, I believe, is two Virginia pines (photos attached). There are two twisted needles per fascicle, rather than three, and the buds are hairy. I emailed the nursery about the problem, with photos, and their response was that they "reserve the right to substitute species in the event of the requested species being out of stock." They also made sure to point out that the species is "better suited to my hardiness zone."

Well... the reason I bought pitch pines is because they backbud prolifically, and they're native to my home state. I prefer to work with native species, and this is one of the few that is decent for bonsai purposes. Virginia pine is not native, and not as well suited to bonsai, as far as I can tell.

However, the nursery seems to have made it clear that they do not intend to send me what I ordered. Their response basically says to me "you get what we give you, not what you paid for, go f**k yourself."

Needless to say... I won't be ordering from them again or recommending that anyone do so.

The question is now... I have two Virginia pines... how do I treat them? They're two-needle pines, so my guess is to follow @Vance Wood 's Mugo advice?

Any other ideas?

On the pitch pine front... I'm a little discouraged from online ordering now... guess I'll be making the two-hour round trip to the nearest pitch pine grove I know of to collect some from the wild...

Did

I did find this after they pointed it out to me in the email. The problem is I looked for any “fine print” for a good twenty minutes BEFORE making my purchase and didn’t find this page. It was hidden on the site as well as the customer service email.
If this was their policy, it should also be policy to put that information front and center at the checkout screen. One simple sentence could have avoided a whole lot of frustration on my part. But I wasn’t told about the “no subs” policy until after I emailed them several times about the confusion.

Either way, my mistake, for not asking enough questions. I own that. Which is why I’m asking now, “what do I do with these trees?”

Either way, would not recommend doing business with this nursery. Regardless of the “fine print,” this feels scheisty at best, purposefully deceitful at worst.

If they want to operate as a “wholesale,” they ought to refuse transactions of fewer than a certain number of units. That’s wholesale. But I could have placed an order for one single tree, if I wanted to. That’s retail.
My thought? If you sell retail, have your customer service match. If you want to have the customer service to match wholesale, then sell wholesale. Not retail.

So... I bought two pitch pines from Tennessee Wholesale Nursery online. What I received, I believe, is two Virginia pines (photos attached). There are two twisted needles per fascicle, rather than three, and the buds are hairy. I emailed the nursery about the problem, with photos, and their response was that they "reserve the right to substitute species in the event of the requested species being out of stock." They also made sure to point out that the species is "better suited to my hardiness zone."

Well... the reason I bought pitch pines is because they backbud prolifically, and they're native to my home state. I prefer to work with native species, and this is one of the few that is decent for bonsai purposes. Virginia pine is not native, and not as well suited to bonsai, as far as I can tell.

However, the nursery seems to have made it clear that they do not intend to send me what I ordered. Their response basically says to me "you get what we give you, not what you paid for, go f**k yourself."

Needless to say... I won't be ordering from them again or recommending that anyone do so.

The question is now... I have two Virginia pines... how do I treat them? They're two-needle pines, so my guess is to follow @Vance Wood 's Mugo advice?

Any other ideas?

On the pitch pine front... I'm a little discouraged from online ordering now... guess I'll be making the two-hour round trip to the nearest pitch pine grove I know of to collect some from the wild...

Did they actually have pitch pine advertized as available? Seems like a strange choice for them to have in stock for most purposes? They could be like "screw you we'll still make the sale and send you the closest thing we've got? Its not like most customers are that aware or run a DNA test.

 

[The Barber]

Virginia pine backbud quite profusely based on what I have seen with mine so far...have short needles, and are double flush. I think they'll grow on you...honestly you may end up loving them. If they survive the bare rooting, which they may, once upon a time I bare rooted 4 and half survived.

 

[rusticana]

Did



Did they actually have pitch pine advertized as available? Seems like a strange choice for them to have in stock for most purposes? They could be like "screw you we'll still make the sale and send you the closest thing we've got? Its not like most customers are that aware or run a DNA test.

I take that back. Apparently its quite the thing. All I know is pitch pine are the best for sealing birch bark canoes (though any pine will do) and waterproof firestarter. Actually I don't know. Only heard.