Wishing to develop a Shohin forest...
- Thread starter Cadillactaste
- Start date
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
So I'm getting used to this new layout...you can see I picked up a small tray for a forest. Considering Seiju Elm. Which was great advice given to me by Vin. But somehow attached it without text.
Mike...you showed me a photo of your elm. How cute are those tiny leaves!
My pondering is...I've read they are fast growing. At what distance should the trees be planted away from each other? To allow for the trunks to thicken...?
Mike...you showed me a photo of your elm. How cute are those tiny leaves!
My pondering is...I've read they are fast growing. At what distance should the trees be planted away from each other? To allow for the trunks to thicken...?
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
I have never built a forest yet. Going to put some tamarack, and elm forests together this tear though.
My thinking is to have the trunks already grown to size before putting them together because once in a shallow pot or on a slab trunks won't thicken so fast. So I would grow them separately until I had trunks at a suitable thickness.
They do grow fast. They are elms. To grow them together spacing shouldn't matter because in order to get trunk girth you need to grow tree height. After a couple years they will have all of their roots grown together and will essentially be one tree.
One of the plantings I'm thinking about is a full sized bonsai (maybe 24" to 30" tall) Regular Chinese elm. With seiju elm saplings no taller than 6" to 8" tall in a little grove under or next to or just scattered around it. Kind of like a big old mother elm and her babies. I don't know if this will be an acceptable" forest" planting but I think it will be very cool nonetheless.
My thinking is to have the trunks already grown to size before putting them together because once in a shallow pot or on a slab trunks won't thicken so fast. So I would grow them separately until I had trunks at a suitable thickness.
They do grow fast. They are elms. To grow them together spacing shouldn't matter because in order to get trunk girth you need to grow tree height. After a couple years they will have all of their roots grown together and will essentially be one tree.
One of the plantings I'm thinking about is a full sized bonsai (maybe 24" to 30" tall) Regular Chinese elm. With seiju elm saplings no taller than 6" to 8" tall in a little grove under or next to or just scattered around it. Kind of like a big old mother elm and her babies. I don't know if this will be an acceptable" forest" planting but I think it will be very cool nonetheless.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Found an example! This Google thing is killer.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
That is a very neat idea you propose...My pot is only like 9"x6"x1" I'm thinking. So nothing large scale on my part.
Giga
Masterpiece
I never done a forest either but I was under the impression that the tree should be somewhat developed before you put them in the pot, good roots and trunks your happy with? I could be wrong though. Would be cool though as I had a seiju elm last year but didn't make it through the winter for some odd reason.
Edit: Frary said everything I just did already lol
Edit: Frary said everything I just did already lol
Brian Underwood
Chumono
I have created about a dozen forests with decent success.
First off, it is necessary to start with quality, somewhat developed trees. The best thing about forests is you can use trees that would not be very good on their own, but together they create a pleasing composition. Species that might be good for shohin sized groups would include; trident maple, japanese maple, seiju elm, caitlin elm, zelkova, boxwood, or any other small leaf deciduous tree. I have always followed these simple guidelines; place the largest tree in front followed by the second largest and so on, no two trees in the same plane of view, use an odd number of trees, and have them all lean outward from each other. This will lend the best harmony in your new composition. Have fun and experiment!
First off, it is necessary to start with quality, somewhat developed trees. The best thing about forests is you can use trees that would not be very good on their own, but together they create a pleasing composition. Species that might be good for shohin sized groups would include; trident maple, japanese maple, seiju elm, caitlin elm, zelkova, boxwood, or any other small leaf deciduous tree. I have always followed these simple guidelines; place the largest tree in front followed by the second largest and so on, no two trees in the same plane of view, use an odd number of trees, and have them all lean outward from each other. This will lend the best harmony in your new composition. Have fun and experiment!
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I think you are familiar with this.....
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATGroups.html
On the grid to wire down to.
Or you could pencil in some ideas in the pot bottom and drill some holes.
I'm gonna put an elm forest together this year too!
Indiana next, then Wisconsin, it's gonna be a great lakes Ulmus Forest Festus!
I think arranging paper or foam models in the pot could help. You only get one chance to get it right ....ish.
Can't wait for a look see!
Sorce
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATGroups.html
On the grid to wire down to.
Or you could pencil in some ideas in the pot bottom and drill some holes.
I'm gonna put an elm forest together this year too!
Indiana next, then Wisconsin, it's gonna be a great lakes Ulmus Forest Festus!
I think arranging paper or foam models in the pot could help. You only get one chance to get it right ....ish.
Can't wait for a look see!
Sorce
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
No I hadn't come across that link. Thanks!!! I had thought to glue wire like hooks/loops at the base of the pot...but that is also quite interesting how they used the bars as well.
Really leaning toward the Seiju Elm because of their known texture of mature bark and the miniature leaves. I think in a small forest pot as I have...I need to keep the leaves in correspondence with the size I'm working with to really pull it off.
Thanks guys...would love to see some photos of yours Brian! And good luck Sorce on yours as well. Please share when you get to that point.
Really leaning toward the Seiju Elm because of their known texture of mature bark and the miniature leaves. I think in a small forest pot as I have...I need to keep the leaves in correspondence with the size I'm working with to really pull it off.
Thanks guys...would love to see some photos of yours Brian! And good luck Sorce on yours as well. Please share when you get to that point.
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
Check your Koreshoff. She gives full details on creating a forest.
You do NOT use twigs to start a forest. Use trees of varied ages, trunk thickness and heights. Thicker the trunk, taller the tree. That is Number 1 tree. Plant trees in small groups with odd numbers. Each group around a larger tree, and the groups around the group with the largest tree. No tree totally blocks the view of another tree when seen from the front.
You do NOT use twigs to start a forest. Use trees of varied ages, trunk thickness and heights. Thicker the trunk, taller the tree. That is Number 1 tree. Plant trees in small groups with odd numbers. Each group around a larger tree, and the groups around the group with the largest tree. No tree totally blocks the view of another tree when seen from the front.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Thanks Jim! I will be pulling the book out of the gazebo to read today then!!! I had not read that part of it. Skimming over things I hadn't planned on doing just yet. 
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
The Brooklyn Botanic Garden at one time put out a series of 3 booklets which were very good. They, alas are out of print -- or were last I checked -- but are available in used book sites at very reasonable prices. One -- "Bonsai - Special Techniques" -- has an excellent article on forest planning, complete with diagrams.
Bunjeh
Chumono
If you have yet to make your decision on species, go to http://www.internationalbonsai.com/page/1442817 and check out the seedlings. Just received (European Beech and Korean Hornbeam). Never been happier. Bill rocks.
edprocoat
Masterpiece
This composition does not look good to my eye. The contrast is far too great between the large tree and the twigs in the pot with it. It looks very unnatural or contrived to me.
ed
bonsaibp
Omono
DArlene while not shohin sized trees this blog post may give you an idea. The methods are the same no matter the size trees. Hope it helps.http://bonsaibpsbonsaiblog-bonsai.blogspot.com/2011/02/creating-forest-planting-part-1.html
Darlene,
When you look at a good bonsai forest, you will notice a harmony that makes the forest pleasing to the eye. There have been some good tips posted here already.
Here are mine:
The tallest tree should be the thickest trunk. The second tallest, the second thickest. The third tallest... Well, you get the idea. No two tree should be the same height or thickness.
Placement of trees number 1,2, and 3 are very important. They should be arranged in an unequal sided triangle. The distances between trees is very important. A poor forest will have all the trees appear to be about the same distance apart. Very unnatural. A well done forest will have no trees an equal distance apart. Some trees should be very close together.
If the largest tree is placed near the front of the pot, you will be building what is called "a near view" forest. Our minds place the tallest tree in the middle of the forest. So, if the tallest tree is in the front, it's as if we are standing in the middle of the forest, looking at the Mother tree.
As opposed to: a "far view" forest. This is where the tallest tree is placed near the back of the pot. It would appear that we are standing at some distance from the forest, and looking at it from afar, and the Mother tree is well inside the forest.
Now... You want to build a shohin forest...
Uh, let's not try that as our first forest. You can still use the pot you have, but don't restrict yourself to a finished height of 8 inches. Just too hard to do, especially since you are rather new to bonsai. If you want a true shohin multi trunk composition, I think you would have better success with a clump style.
Clump style are not really considered "forests" even if they are developed from individual trees.
When you look at a good bonsai forest, you will notice a harmony that makes the forest pleasing to the eye. There have been some good tips posted here already.
Here are mine:
The tallest tree should be the thickest trunk. The second tallest, the second thickest. The third tallest... Well, you get the idea. No two tree should be the same height or thickness.
Placement of trees number 1,2, and 3 are very important. They should be arranged in an unequal sided triangle. The distances between trees is very important. A poor forest will have all the trees appear to be about the same distance apart. Very unnatural. A well done forest will have no trees an equal distance apart. Some trees should be very close together.
If the largest tree is placed near the front of the pot, you will be building what is called "a near view" forest. Our minds place the tallest tree in the middle of the forest. So, if the tallest tree is in the front, it's as if we are standing in the middle of the forest, looking at the Mother tree.
As opposed to: a "far view" forest. This is where the tallest tree is placed near the back of the pot. It would appear that we are standing at some distance from the forest, and looking at it from afar, and the Mother tree is well inside the forest.
Now... You want to build a shohin forest...
Uh, let's not try that as our first forest. You can still use the pot you have, but don't restrict yourself to a finished height of 8 inches. Just too hard to do, especially since you are rather new to bonsai. If you want a true shohin multi trunk composition, I think you would have better success with a clump style.
Clump style are not really considered "forests" even if they are developed from individual trees.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Thanks Adair...I contemplated a clump as well prior to it arriving. With the actual visual size in hand of pot. I'm thinking you are correct to maybe go that route.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Ive also ordered some seedlings from Bill V with the plan to make a couple of forests. No idea when he will ship those to me. Its probably too cold here yet.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
You might be well pleased with a mixed forest planting in a pot that size...
Grimmy
Grimmy
