Why are my trunks spiral?

[William Dinitzen]

Hey, I have these two trees, a Chinese Elm and a Japanese maple, and I noticed that both have this spiral bend of the trunk, however a lot of the trees I see online do not have this bend. Is it a custom to create these shapes, or am I justified in finding it slightly tacky and unnatural?

 

[Srt8madness]

Purchased sight unseen? S shape is typically done on mass market "bonsai"

 

[William Dinitzen]

Purchased sight unseen? S shape is typically done on mass market "bonsai"

Well im quite new, so I didn't think more of it when I bought them, however as im getting more into the hobby, I've started noticing this. Mass market was what I would have guessed myself, so thanks for clearing it up for me, perhaps I will look into investing in some more more naturally shaped trees in the future! However im nervous to spend too much on a tree, with the risk of ruining decades of work, as im still quite inexperienced.

 

[Haines' Trees]

Yeah I find that many large vendors go for this look. Easily produced with very little effort and says “bonsai” to many people.

I’m not a particularly large fan the aesthetic either. Where in nature would a tree end up looking this way? Maybe in stories and fables. But if the goal is to create the illusion of a full sized tree, I think you’d be hard pressed to find a fully grown tree in nature that has that shape.

They did a number on that maple with the wire. Should grow out eventually but still…

 

[William Dinitzen]

Yeah I find that many large vendors go for this look. Easily produced with very little effort and says “bonsai” to many people.

I’m not a particularly large fan the aesthetic either. Where in nature would a tree end up looking this way? Maybe in stories and fables. But if the goal is to create the illusion of a full sized tree, I think you’d be hard pressed to find a fully grown tree in nature that has that shape.

They did a number on that maple with the wire. Should grow out eventually but still…

Yeah it almost looks like a flower rather than a tree, but that might also be exaggerated, due to how thin and lanky it is.

 

[rockm]

You can re-work both of these trees to get rid of those monotonous S bends. Chop the tops at the first or second bend from the soil, regrow apices. Wont take but a two or three years to get a new apex on the elm (which is in desperate need of a repot and soil refresh next year--should have been this year, but it's past time to do it), probably same for the maple.

 

[William Dinitzen]

You can re-work both of these trees to get rid of those monotonous S bends. Chop the tops at the first or second bend from the soil, regrow apices. Wont take but a two or three years to get a new apex on the elm (which is in desperate need of a repot and soil refresh next year--should have been this year, but it's past time to do it), probably same for the maple.

Okay, I guessing this is something I should wait with till next spring. Regarding the soil, I bought the tree this winter and have been thinking that the soil looks quite horrid, however im still too new to identify when a repot or refresh is necessary, so thanks for telling me!

 

[dbonsaiw]

There appear to be many ways to develop a bonsai and some commercial developers presumably do so by bending the seedling into an "S" shape and letting the trunk thicken up to the point they can charge you a few hundred dollars. They are not necessarily cutting the trunk back and growing a new leader which seems to produce better results on deciduous trees.

You can re-work both of these trees to get rid of those monotonous S bends. Chop the tops at the first or second bend from the soil, regrow apices. Wont take but a two or three years to get a new apex on the elm (which is in desperate need of a repot and soil refresh next year--should have been this year, but it's past time to do it), probably same for the maple.

Glad you said this. Was considering something just like this and didn't have the stones.

 

[William Dinitzen]

There appear to be many ways to develop a bonsai and some commercial developers presumably do so by bending the seedling into an "S" shape and letting the trunk thicken up to the point they can charge you a few hundred dollars. They are not necessarily cutting the trunk back and growing a new leader which seems to produce better results on deciduous trees.

Glad you said this. Was considering something just like this and didn't have the stones.

I know I won't be doing this till at least next years spring, but would it not be too tall a task for a beginner like me, or would it recover fine from it?
Also, would I not end up with a very short tree, or is this not a worry?

 

[dbonsaiw]

I know I won't be doing this till at least next years spring, but would it not be too tall a task for a beginner like me, or would it recover fine from it?

Pruning the tree is easy and all you need is a saw. It should heal fine as well. First order of business is maybe to take a pic of the tree and draw the proposed design over that so you know where you are going.

To me, these trees don't look like an exaggerated "S". Personally, I like the shape of your elm. Maybe a bit too tall given the proportions currently. My "issue" with the maple isn't the movement per se, but that the second section of trunk is much longer than the first.

 

[William Dinitzen]

Pruning the tree is easy and all you need is a saw. It should heal fine as well. First order of business is maybe to take a pic of the tree and draw the proposed design over that so you know where you are going.

To me, these trees don't look like an exaggerated "S". Personally, I like the shape of your elm. Maybe a bit too tall given the proportions currently. My "issue" with the maple isn't the movement per se, but that the second section of trunk is much longer than the first.

Yeah I see what you mean by that, Ive noticed that it has been cut down once before. Perhaps it has been in a large pot where it was allowed to grow very tall, hence the oddly long second section. Ill consider shortening it next spring. I really like maples that are more wide than they are long, so I guess cutting it down would be the first step to achieving that?

 

[leatherback]

Instead of just cutting it off, take airlayers and duplicate these trees. A slight curve in a trunk is great.

 

[rockm]

I know I won't be doing this till at least next years spring, but would it not be too tall a task for a beginner like me, or would it recover fine from it?
Also, would I not end up with a very short tree, or is this not a worry?

The height of the tree has a direct influence on the visual "weight" of the trunk. Shorter trees and wider trunks make more visually appealing bonsai, as they have more visual "weight" and convey more age. A tall, relatively skinny trunk conveys none of that.

Yes, you will have a shorter tree, but it will be more in proportion to the width of the trunk. If these were mine, I'd chop both at the first branch up from the soil and work from there (you will also have to get rid of those roots on the elm that emerge from the trunk above the soil level. They add nothing and will take over if you let them, at the expense of the roots below the soil.

FWIW, good bonsai are generally not "grown up" from smaller trees, but "cut down" from larger stock. While some bonsai are made from specific seed grown stock, the majority of the bonsai you see in exhibits are simply cut down stumps that have had their apex and branching regrown.

I've posted this before, but these are photos of a live oak dug from the wild I've done that with. Since it is a very large bonsai, that has taken a few years.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

Well im quite new, so I didn't think more of it when I bought them, however as im getting more into the hobby, I've started noticing this. Mass market was what I would have guessed myself, so thanks for clearing it up for me, perhaps I will look into investing in some more more naturally shaped trees in the future! However im nervous to spend too much on a tree, with the risk of ruining decades of work, as im still quite inexperienced.

I share your concern as someone new as well. I bought small sized junipers from big box retail to practice slip-potting and developing into larger size. By the time the trees reach the desired size, I’ll be more comfortable with growing and developing before I begin refinement.

I noticed fungus recently on one of my trees, so I carved it away but it seems it was unnecessary to remove it. The other smaller one is struggling a little with the slip-potting but this process is teaching me. I welcome the opportunity to learn from mistakes.

 

[William Dinitzen]

I share your concern as someone new as well. I bought small sized junipers from big box retail to practice slip-potting and developing into larger size. By the time the trees reach the desired size, I’ll be more comfortable with growing and developing before I begin refinement.

I noticed fungus recently on one of my trees, so I carved it away but it seems it was unnecessary to remove it. The other smaller one is struggling a little with the slip-potting but this process is teaching me. I welcome the opportunity to learn from mistakes.

I slip-potted my maple today aswell, as I was told to do so by my local bonsai guy who I bought it from, hopefully it goes well. I think messing up to some degree is inevitable as a beginner, so I don't worry too much if something goes south with these cheaper commercial trees. Good luck with your junipers!

 

[William Dinitzen]

Instead of just cutting it off, take airlayers and duplicate these trees. A slight curve in a trunk is great.

Im not quit sure I understand what you mean, when you say duplicate? I should airlayer further down the branch to promote growth in that area, or what do you mean by that? Apologies if I sound lost, but im not quite familiar with all the bonsai lingo yet.

 

[leatherback]

Im not quit sure I understand what you mean, when you say duplicate? I should airlayer further down the branch to promote growth in that area, or what do you mean by that? Apologies if I sound lost, but im not quite familiar with all the bonsai lingo yet.

here ya go!

 

[William Dinitzen]

here ya go!

Just watched the video, seemed doable, however probably too late to do this year? Where would you recommend I make the cut, if I do go ahead with this method?

 

[dbonsaiw]

ust watched the video, seemed doable, however probably too late to do this year?

Did my layers this weekend and thought maybe it was too early. Go for it.

 

[William Dinitzen]

Did my layers this weekend and thought maybe it was too early. Go for it.

I just slip potted the maple today, would it not be too many things at once, or is it still fine?