When to start balancing energy?

[Glaucus]

You are getting a wide array of confusing responses to a very simple question.

Maybe it is not as simple as you say because your trees also have leggy branches.
If one removes the apical shoot on your tree, one doesn't have a respectable bonsai in 1 or 2 years either.
Additionally, the scars made by removing big sacrificial branches can start to play a role. If one tries to achieve one goal, one fails to meet the other two.
And if one tries to to achieve one goal as faster/in less growing seasons, the other two become harder to achieve long-term. It really is a balancing act that one can make easier by doing it slower and thus in more years. And harder by trying to do it with less big scars.

If you rephrase the question to 'should I reduce the apex to 1 candle/shoot', then that would be a simple question and the answer would be 'yes'.
But there is much more to growing a pine bonsai than that.

 

[Glaucus]

For the pine pictures on the foreground in the first picture in the OP, it already looks bit tricky. Which part is actual the final design? Surely from the soil to the first node. But what about the first node to the second node. Do you intend to keep that?
From the second to third, surely that will all be chopped. You really need to reduce the vigor in that part. Reduce to just one long candle in the apex. And even pluck the needles.

Growing out this apex will NOT give you taper. It will fatten the entire tree evenly. To get taper, you need to grow out one of the two branches from your first node as a sacrificial branch.
Then, the branch that will be the apex of your final bonsai, you need many buds there. Not just the buds you get from the ordinary growing pattern, node-internode-node. You need buds on the internode section, ie backbudding. Which means pruning.
Your apex can be one of the branches on your first node. or your second node.

To my untrained eye, the branch on the right on the second node looks most promising as the future apex.
Which means that the branch opposite to it will have to become a future branch, or else you will have no branches there.
Which means that the branch on the right on the first node has to become a sacrificial branch, creating most of the taper.
And therefore the one opposite to it, the first branch on the left, will be a final design branch (ignoring weaker buds that may be there that are not obvious to me and that may not survive).

So somehow you have to direct energy into that new sacrificial branch so it starts to become as dominant as your current leader.
Additionally, you have to get backbudding on your future apex, which means you need to prune that, which will weaken it, but you want it to be stronger.
So you have to weaken everything else more.
Which potentially means you need to weaken everything.
But if you prune off all the long candles on the top, it will actually backbud right below that on the section filled with needles (third to fourth growth node), which is also not what you want.
I wonder if candle pruning your single candle in your apex will be the right decision for this tree anyway. Better to set up a tree properly for bonsai even if you lose 1 or 2 growing seasons worth of trunk diameter.
Overall, you definitely want to direct energy out of your apex and into all the other branches.
You can try doing needle plucking on the apex.

You do seem to have a few very weak buds on the lower part of the trunk. Those may give you more options down the road. But hard to judge from this picture.

 

[River's Edge]

Maybe it is not as simple as you say because your trees also have leggy branches.

The trees pictured are 10 years or less, I chose pictures of those at similar stages to the OP. Grow out and cut back transforms young leggy branches over time. Particularly with vigorous JBP.
Your observation is interesting. It is my observation that good pines can take 30 plus years to develop properly. Not sure I ever suggested it was a quicker process.

 

[Glaucus]

I am just confused as to how you just skipped over the part of how to balance strength of the sac. leader vs future branches, and then claim others are adding confusion, when that was the entire question of the OP.
It also depends on what kind of type, style and size pine bonsai you want to make. But it makes sense to go for a smaller one as a beginner. Did you watch the video I linked?
Because if you want results in 10 years, not 20 or 30, you seem to be making the same 'mistake' I made.

The bonsai artist I linked seems to candle prune the other branches and has them so weak they barely stay alive. Yet you, me, the OP and Telperion have let the other branches grow kinda freely, becoming long and being bald near the trunk eventually.
The 'just let it grow so it can thicken the trunk as fast as possible, as long as the sac. branch doesn't shade out the rest of the pine' is a legitimate strategy. But it does not seem to produce the same quality of bonsai.

Sure, the OP should understand the basics first. But then 'the confusing part' is actually where you make the difference between an average and a good bonsai.
I grew stuff for 10 years. They grew fat, have taper. But to me they don't have potential for good bonsai. unless you add 2 decades more of age to them and they are good because they are old, not because they were grown skillfully.

 

[River's Edge]

I am just confused as to how you just skipped over the part of how to balance strength of the sac. leader

Perhaps if you read it more carefully or I phrased it differently. Removing the side shoots and needles from the sacrifice apical leader balances the vigour of that area. It retains the strength of the apical leader for extension however. This is the same for side scarce branches or when leaders are replaced to introduce taper and change of direction.
Leggy branches at ten years development is normal. During the next decade one focuses on grow out// cut back. The inherent back budding creates the density and fulness desired on each branch over time. Each tree and branch can develop at different speeds and so the method requires individual assessment and application of appropriate technique over time.
There are other methods which can be used, that is common for Bonsai.
I simply addressed the OP_ question. I did not attempt to change the question or write a book on the step by step process to carry out over four or five decades of development.
The pictures I posted were not detailed enough to show the buds, shoots and needles within the so called "leggy branches. "
Perhaps these pictures will clarify it for you. The last picture shows one of my pines at fifteen years with still lots of time for further development and refinement. Hope they help clear some things up.

 

[Glaucus]

But it seems you can do both at the same time by balancing their strength. Which is what the OPs question was about. Adding another decade to fix the problems you could have avoided is not ideal. Also, not all species of pine have 'inherent backbudding'. The Scot's pine of the OP being one of them.

If you look at this video, their approach is very different from what we in this thread have recommended, what I did in the past, and what Telperion has done.
This is key.

One shouldn't oversimplify something, trying to avoid 'writing a book'.
I am sorry if you feel I am criticizing your results, but it was you who criticized other people's replies, only to add two lengthy replies yourself.
And your results show exactly what happens if you only do what some people here suggested, keeping things 'simple'.
If we have better understanding, we should strive for the best possible bonsai.

Now, I am not a pine person. But having attempted myself what you have done and what the OP is currently doing, we can definitely discuss the nuances of balancing final design branches vs sacrificial branches.
To me now, it seems most important to FIRST set up a section of the base of the trunk to have good movement and the necessary buds for future branches, new leaders, and apex. And only then start growing out a leader to fatten up the entire thing.
Otherwise, you are just growing a fat pine, maybe with some taper, waiting for it to get some age, and only turning it into a bonsai afterwards.
And if you are skilled and experienced, you can do both at the same time.

 

[River's Edge]

Also, not all species of pine have 'inherent backbudding'. The Scot's pine of the OP being one of them.

Scots pine back bud beautifully! One of their strengths and a good reason to select them for bonsai. Photos taken from my nursery a few moments ago.. Pruning done last fall, new small buds just emerging on bare portions of branches behind current foliage. This is a Scots Pine in the process of chasing back the foliage for improvement of density and compacting the design.
Lots of factors influence back budding. key elements health of the tree, timing of pruning and location of pruning.
My comments are based on my training as well as my actual experience.
Sounds like your experience has been different!

 

[RosePastry]

You are getting a wide array of confusing responses to a very simple question.
When developing pines it is important to balance energy according to the developmental goals at each stage.
Basically one needs to ensure that you keep your priorities straight and prune in accordance with those priorities.
For the pictures you have shown my response is as follows.
1.Apical leaders and sacrifice branches are intended to primarily thicken sections quickly and be removed, not part of the final design. Thickening occurs best with extension of apical growth rather than many side shoots. Additionally the apical extension is less likely to shade out lower and interior growth. Therefore reduce apical leaders and sacrifice branches to a main candle and one safety side shoot. I do this typically at the beginning of the growing season to get the most benefit from extension.
2. It is important at all stages to maintain lower branching health and vigour by balancing energy each year in the developmental process. Particularily within the first ten years. The reasoning being that this is the best time for back budding to occur. Thus allowing one to develop density and design branching as opposed to simply the coarse branching for thickening the trunk and initial stages of primary branching.
3. If you do not begin to strengthen the lower branching and develop more foliage below it will be very difficult to expect successful development without a much more extended period of development. And it becomes more difficult as the tree gets older, thus increasing the likelihood of grafting being required.
4. Energy balancing during basic early development involves pruning each individual part of the pine in accordance with its individual stage. By this I mean, constant attention to the amount of foliage, thickening rate and presence of developing buds. I prefer early spring for this activity, but it can be done in the fall as well. My preference is on maintaining the health and vigour throughout the winter and then pruning and or needle reduction just prior to the growing season.

I have included a couple of pictures to try and illustrate the comments above

This is very helpful. I've been having a hard time imaging development with my pines as well.

 

[River's Edge]

This is very helpful. I've been having a hard time imaging development with my pines as well.

Thank you. Appreciate your response. It can be difficult to visualize how the normal growth pattern can be modified to respond in such a way to create a very different looking outcome.
A key skill to acquire is the ability to maintain your trees in optimum health if expecting a strong response from correctly applied techniques.

 

[RosePastry]

Thank you. Appreciate your response. It can be difficult to visualize how the normal growth pattern can be modified to respond in such a way to create a very different looking outcome.
A key skill to acquire is the ability to maintain your trees in optimum health if expecting a strong response from correctly applied techniques.

Since the OP is asking questions on energy balancing maybe this example is on topic.

I have shortleaf pines that are refusing to choose to grow a single sacrifice and maintain their color. Even with fertilizing and watering done.

If all the branches had buds selected but the sacrifice with maybe one extra bud does anyone think they might be less weak?

 

[River's Edge]

I have shortleaf pines that are refusing to choose to grow a single sacrifice and maintain their color. Even with fertilizing and watering done.

The statement above leads to several lines of inquiry.
Overall condition of the tree, overall condition of the roots, maintenance routines with respect to correct watering process, type and application times of fertilizer.
Often when we look for a single answer, the answer lies in a cumulative effect of variables.
I would suggest you create a separate post for this question, take some pictures, provide some history for those responding. ie: Species/ cultivar/ age of tree, work done within the past year or two.
This information would be very beneficial in obtaining better responses.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Short answer.
1.Remove the side shoots except one and keep only one side shoot and the central apical candle on the end of each sacrifice branch and the apical sacrifice leader for the trunk thickening. Remove needles if shading lower portions needed for design. ( all elements that will not be part of the final design)
You can do that now!
2. For branches being kept for part of the design keep enough foliage for vigour and health at all times. If the branch needs thickening still keep the central and side shoots until you have enough thickness and interior foliage to cut back. Make sure the foliage closer in is strong enough to continue to flourish before cutting back. The response is stronger if one waits for more growth before cutting back. Do not worry at all about needle length during this stage of development.
Hope the comments help. Feel free to shoot me a specific picture and I will mark it up the way I would deal with it at this point in time.
best of luck. Once you are past this stage over the next four or five years you will be on to decandling and shorter needles such as pictured below. One of my JBP,s that is a little further along in development.

As per always, thank you for your concise answers Frank! You answered exactly what my question was and it makes sense. I'll be reducing my Apex leader down to two today.

I've attached some pictures of some of my trees; moving on to managing the growth on my new leaders/main branches. I'm getting a ton of buds close to the trunk)which is a good problem to have I guess haha) at what point do I remove the buds I don't want. Furthermore, at what point do I deal with the whirl developments on my branches?

As for my second tree: I have a ton of shoots from last season, should I go ahead and branch select or wait until they've developed further?

 

[River's Edge]

As per always, thank you for your concise answers Frank! You answered exactly what my question was and it makes sense. I'll be reducing my Apex leader down to two today.

I've attached some pictures of some of my trees; moving on to managing the growth on my new leaders/main branches. I'm getting a ton of buds close to the trunk)which is a good problem to have I guess haha) at what point do I remove the buds I don't want. Furthermore, at what point do I deal with the whirl developments on my branches?
View attachment 492018View attachment 492020View attachment 492017View attachment 492019
As for my second tree: I have a ton of shoots from last season, should I go ahead and branch select or wait until they've developed further?
View attachment 492021View attachment 492022View attachment 492023

Both of these questions are part of the balancing of energy program.
Basic rule of thumb, retain as much foliage, shoots and new growth lower down as possible for as long as possible!
Often the new shoots become part of the final design and the initial shoots with longer internodes and fewer buds become sacrifice branches or new apical leaders to develop taper and change of direction.
The size of the engine determines the power available for development. The needles power the production of energy for growth.
So my approach is to remove when the branch or needles are beginning to affect or restrict the development of design elements you wish to keep. I reduce whorls as soon as possible to prevent knuckles and ugly scars. Having said that I do reduce in stages, allowing for healing scars before creating too many in the same location. For pines I feel it is important to remove the branch with a stub left. ( I see you are doing this) Allow the plant to adjust and come back to refine the cut after a couple of months. Creating one or two section to heal at a time in any one whorl.
If I am concerned about too many branches at the whorl, I will often slow the growth on those I intend to remove later while removing one or two at the same time. This prevents further difficulties while buying time to finish removal over time.
Something simple to reduce the risk.

With trees at this stage it can be very helpful to plan primary branch and determine what branch you would like to use for the next apical leader. ( the goal being to introduce taper and change of direction. Then wire accordingly to add movement and direction to the primary branch or next apical leader. applying wire to the trunk can improve the directionality of the next apical leader if the young trunk can be moved slightly aside for the next apical leader. These pictures may assist with the thoughts expressed above.
Hope that helps clarify and perhaps add some ideas to your project.

 

[SeanS]

A point that seems to be missed regarding the videos being posted is that the grower is showing how he develops tiny shohin pines, where the branches need to be kept very short and thin while developing the trunks. Others are sharing how they developing slightly larger (even if only slightly bigger than shohin) pines. There could be some nuances and differences in how development occurs or can be carried out in different size pines.

 

[Potawatomi13]

What are the beginning signs of lower branch weakening?

Weak anemic growth, weak buds, anything mostly/constantly shaded.

 

[Glaucus]

Scots pine back bud beautifully! One of their strengths and a good reason to select them for bonsai. Photos taken from my nursery a few moments ago.. Pruning done last fall, new small buds just emerging on bare portions of branches behind current foliage. This is a Scots Pine in the process of chasing back the foliage for improvement of density and compacting the design.
Lots of factors influence back budding. key elements health of the tree, timing of pruning and location of pruning.
My comments are based on my training as well as my actual experience.
Sounds like your experience has been different!

I have Scot's pine seedlings collected from the local forest. They are in a very sunny spot, get plenty of fertilizer, a good amount of extra water, and they grew very fast.
I did not notice a lot of spontaneous backbudding. And when it did occur, it did on parts where there are previous years needles. Not on bald branches.
When pruning, I consistently can get backbudding, but almost exclusively on the part of branches that still has needles.
Because of a lack of e reliable method to get backbudding on bald branches, for me it was an issue to have these longer branches.

I see you get nice backbudding on older parts. That is spontaneous? Or pruning induced? I have always waited until quite late into July to do pruning when I want to include backbudding.
The logic being that the more additional energy the new candles can put into the plant, the stronger the response to pruning will be.

If you have a method to get reliable backbudding on bald branches of Scot's pine, please share. Because that will avoid the issue of having to candle prune the actual bonsai-part of a pine that is a bonsai&sacrificial leader system.
As is shown in almost all pines in the Takamatsu Bonsai nursery videos. Because in their method, the answer to 'When to start balancing energy?' would be 'Immediately and always'.
While the other philosophy is to just let the sacrificial branch grow as much as possible, as long as it doesn't shade the rest of the plant.
And to worry about the branching later down the road.
Or your middle ground where a leader should be only the center candle.

 

[Glaucus]

A point that seems to be missed regarding the videos being posted is that the grower is showing how he develops tiny shohin pines, where the branches need to be kept very short and thin while developing the trunks. Others are sharing how they developing slightly larger (even if only slightly bigger than shohin) pines. There could be some nuances and differences in how development occurs or can be carried out in different size pines.

Tiny shohin? You mean the Takamatsu bonsai videos? Of course these are smaller. But the reason they are small is because of their age.
But I don't think the OP is trying to grow for 40 years to develop 1m high pine bonsai.
One of my regrets is actually that the pine trunks I grew aren't really suitable for smaller bonsai. Don't most people want bonsai in the 20 to 40cm in height range? Which they can easily lift alone?
One part of energy management would be to make sure the trunk doesn't get too large. You very easily get long internodes and leggy branches.

It would actually make sense that if you field grow trunks for bonsai, that after 10 years you can at least harvest a few of them and work them.
There is also a difference between growing in pot vs growing in the field. But I think the main point I raised is fair. And addresses directly the topic subject. When do you start to balance? After 10 years? Or after 1 year?
I'd say that after growing just a few pines over a 10 year period, one absolutely has to start thinking about bonsai, branching, energy balance in year 1.

I agree with the advice of trying to keep as much needle mass as long on the trunk as possible. As well as for major branches, reducing them to 2 per node, to prevent reverse taper.
And that of those two, 1 should be an option for a branch in the final design, and the other either a sacrificial branch, or a potential sacrificial branch.

And those weaker buds, you want to nurture them to try to see if they can become candidate branches or even candidate new leaders. You want to break up the node-internode-node pattern by using these in a final design.
You nurture weaker buds by stepping in and weakening the stronger buds; energy balance. How to manage this exactly, I am not sure. I tried needle plucking, but I am not sure if that actually had as much effect on strength.
I didn't do good side by side experiments.
The guy in the Takamatsu bonsai videos prunes very strongly all branches, even during the development stage.
I wonder if with Scot's pine, pruning off the new candles, leaving just 6 needles, quite early on, every other year, may be a good strategy. It will slow things down, but maybe improve the quality of what you get.
That is what I would try if I start to grow pines once more.

 

[River's Edge]

I see you get nice backbudding on older parts. That is spontaneous? Or pruning induced?

It is pruning induced. I find that back budding depends on several factors. The pruning location and amount is ultimately determined by the objective. Where you cut influences the location of back budding. If it is your objective to obtain back budding further back on the branch then one must cut back harder/further.
This is dependant on creating a very strong vigorous growth first so the plant has the strength built up for a stronger response. This often involves growing out the tree for a season or two prior to pruning. This provides one with a extended section to prune back further with stronger apical buds and thus removing more " auxin" .
Other factors that will aid in the response are as follows; prewiring the branches out to allow additional light into the interior, thinning needles and branches not part of the design to prevent shading of areas where back budding is desired, heavier fertilization and plenty of sunlight.
Essentially creating optimum growing conditions and careful maintenance routines.
One must be prepared to allow for extra growth, longer needles during this period of development. Once one has established sufficient density the needles will naturally reduce with the change in management routines of shorter periods of fertilizer and additional energy balancing with needle reduction.
In short the process can take several years to prepare the tree for the best response and several years to create the desired density due to back budding. Grow out/cut back. I find the best approach is to keep the tree as vigorous as possible during all developmental stages until entering refinement.
The above process assumes that one has developed an excellent root ball formation in prior years and the tree is maintained in excellent bonsai media. Free draining with watering technique that benefits pines. Water thoroughly and allow to begin drying out prior to next watering.
Hope the comments help add some information in response to your question.

 

[Glaucus]

It is pruning induced. I find that back budding depends on several factors. The pruning location and amount is ultimately determined by the objective. Where you cut influences the location of back budding. If it is your objective to obtain back budding further back on the branch then one must cut back harder/further.
This is dependant on creating a very strong vigorous growth first so the plant has the strength built up for a stronger response. This often involves growing out the tree for a season or two prior to pruning. This provides one with a extended section to prune back further with stronger apical buds and thus removing more " auxin" .
Other factors that will aid in the response are as follows; prewiring the branches out to allow additional light into the interior, thinning needles and branches not part of the design to prevent shading of areas where back budding is desired, heavier fertilization and plenty of sunlight.
Essentially creating optimum growing conditions and careful maintenance routines.
One must be prepared to allow for extra growth, longer needles during this period of development. Once one has established sufficient density the needles will naturally reduce with the change in management routines of shorter periods of fertilizer and additional energy balancing with needle reduction.
In short the process can take several years to prepare the tree for the best response and several years to create the desired density due to back budding. Grow out/cut back. I find the best approach is to keep the tree as vigorous as possible during all developmental stages until entering refinement.
The above process assumes that one has developed an excellent root ball formation in prior years and the tree is maintained in excellent bonsai media. Free draining with watering technique that benefits pines. Water thoroughly and allow to begin drying out prior to next watering.
Hope the comments help add some information in response to your question.

Isn't the timing of the pruning really key, though? Yeah definitely you want at least 1 season of unrestricted growth before you prune hard. And then prune back into previous year's growth (which should have old needles still there).
I have less pines now than you do, and I also have tried to maximize growth as much as possible, but I have some doubts now and I would try to intervene quite a bit more if I were to try to grow more pines.

 

[SeanS]

Tiny shohin? You mean the Takamatsu bonsai videos? Of course these are smaller. But the reason they are small is because of their age.

The reason they are smaller is because they are destined to be shohin. If you watch some more of his videos where he works on the tiny pines in blue pots with a multitude of buds/foliage 2" from the soil surface you will pick up that those are seedling cutting JBPs that are being built to be shohin. The blue pot pines in his videos are not destined for planting in the field to become one of his amazing massive pines.

There's a part in the first video posted in this thread where he chops off the sacrifice. Seems pointless if he was intending to grow a large pine.

My comment was purely regarding the info that is being posted in this thread based on what was shown in that video related to managing the sacrifice on these smaller pines. There are other videos on that channel that highlight work on his larger field grown pines.