When is it too late to repot a white pine on black pine roots?

[Jason_mazzy]

I just recieved a white pine on black pine rootstock (at least 35 years in a bonsai pot, believed to be much older) from a gentlman who can no longer care for them due to copd. When it arrived the pot was cracked and broke in half when being moved. the tree was unharmed. Ufortunately I learned it has not been repotted since 2000ish. It is a brick. Water will not drain through and I have no idea how it is alive actually. It has losty its vigor but it has buds and growth. I can see the needle tips on all the buds but the needle tips have not elongated as far as I can tell,

IT did come from Santa Cruz CA and I am in NC. I am worried that it has been warmer there so it may be farther along in the season than it would be here.

I potted it in a training box I make out of 18qt dish pans with good soil I DID NOT mess with the rootball (rootbrick).

I did soak it in Age Old Promote (A proprietary blend of trace mineral, humates, seaweed extract and wetting agents, Age Old Promote (4-0-1) breaks the chemical bonding of minerals in the soil.)
To attempt to get some water to penetrate.

The concern of course is watering will only water the new soil while the old rootbrick just sheds the water. But I am hesitant to tear into the rootball with needletips formed on the buds.

BTW they tree is either a freak cultivar or really starved for fertilizer because the needles are 1/2-3/4 inch long at most.

Your expert advice is needed and I am very thankful.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I repotted 2 JWP last weekend here in B'ham, buds are just moving, and it could have waited another week or two. If candles are starting to swell, timing is probably perfect; white pines, junipers, and tropicals are among the last to be repotted.

From what you described, it might be best to comb out the top, bottom, sides, trim back a bit, then try to work in new soil through aerating and around the edges. That might help loosen things up a bit and buy you a year, then get a little more old soil out next year.

Got a photo of the buds?

 

[Adair M]

Next time, ask for advice before you do anything.

You've done no harm, but you haven't really helped the tree either. The old rootbrick will prevent new roots from moving from it into the new, good soil. You should have teased some small roots out so they extend about 1/2 inch out from the old soil. When you add new soil, these will be sticking in the new soil, so they will grow into it.

If you don't do this, new roots will not grow from the old rootball into the new soil. The edge of the old rootball acts as a "barrier".

I just repotted a black pine that had been slip potted into good soil last year, and there were no roots in the new soil on the sides. Totally root bound. I barerooted half of the old rootball, and teased out feeder roots on the other side. In a couple years, I'll bareroot the side I left.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

I had to do what I did before getting advice because the pot was broken. So better to try and get it wet and protect it now and get advice as soon as it is safer and stable.

 

[Adair M]

You could have wrapped it in a plastic bag.

No worries, you didn't hurt anything since you didn't mess with the roots. It won't hurt to pot it again, this time doing as Brian and I suggested.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

I figured that would be the advice. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Adair is right on. Here is a JWP I did last weekend...just roughing up the edges to get roots growing out into better soil, then working new soil into the old...

 

[berobinson82]

So... can we see a pic?

 

[Dan W.]

In my re-potting class in oregon... I learned that with older "finished" trees you actually are going for the akadam "brick"... in other words... that's what you want. It keeps the tree growing slow and steady. When we re-potted these trees we shaved a fair amount off the bottom, sides and top, then teased out the roots with root hooks. (sometimes this felt quite violent as the "brick" was very hard.) We then put a fresh soil mix in and teased it into the exposed roots with chopsticks. -- Trees in development were a dfferent story, you want them growing fast and strong. -- From what I learned in oregon, the real benefit of akadama is that it evolves with the root system; roots grow for years and years, very slowly in the akadama brick... this is part of the dwarfing process from what I understand.

-- Harold Sasaki shared this with our club in Denver last year as well: He said that some of his older imports hadn't been re-potted in a looong time so he was sure they'd be rootbound, but he found the opposite; The roots were still growing happily and slowly in the "brick" and were not root bound at all. -- He was not interested in akadam at all before this. Now he's a believer and uses it for established trees "even though it's expensive"...lol -- I think this was one of his main reasons for not using it before.

I know this isn't the general consensus for soil treatment around here and I'm sure I'll get hounded fo this... but in my defense: This is from two professionals (One studied in Japand and the other was a skeptic...) -- I'm only passing on what I saw and learned from them.

Good Luck with your pine!

 

[Dan W.]

I don't know whether your hard soil is akadama or just bad soil by the way... but if it is an akadam brick I think you'll be surprised at how well it waters even though it doesn't seem like it will.. I sure was!

 

[Adair M]

Dan, as you described, the key is to tease out little feeder roots from the rootball. Expose them so that they will be in the new soil.

 

[Dan W.]

Thanks Adair, I tink I misunderstood you a bit. I thought you were suggesting to completely remove the "brick" or "cake" over a couple of repottings, and to just tease roots out as a precautionary this time. -- Does Boon use this same technique?

 

[Adair M]

Two things:

1: when repotting, and there's a decent rootball, trim the bottom flat. Don't leave any fine hair roots sticking out. Do tease out fine hair roots on the sides. The reason is trees, esp JBP, like to grow their roots down, so we discourage down roots and encourage side roots.

2: if the rootball is composed of good soil, leave it intact. If not good bonsai soil, replace it over two pottings.

My comments about the root work I did yesterday where I was repotting a tree that had been slip potted into good soil, but there were no roots in the good soil, was to illustrate that if fine hair roots are not teased out, they won't grow into the good soil.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Dan W.]

Thanks, I'm afraid many don't realize that this compact rootball can be agood thing... if its made of good soil... akadama. There seem to be two main camps from what I can tell (and everything in between ).. one follows the japanese technigue with akadama rootballs and the other (like Walter Pall) wants very fast draining/open soil mix all the time. Bot obviously work, but if you have a well established tree and you're trying to keep it fine and ramified, it makes sense to me to slow it way down.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

Thanks, I'm afraid many don't realize that this compact rootball can be agood thing... if its made of good soil... akadama. There seem to be two main camps from what I can tell (and everything in between ).. one follows the japanese technigue with akadama rootballs and the other (like Walter Pall) wants very fast draining/open soil mix all the time. Bot obviously work, but if you have a well established tree and you're trying to keep it fine and ramified, it makes sense to me to slow it way down.

I was told today The soil is turface, pumice, and pine bark fines. I may just work it a bit. I'll try and post some pictures of the tree and buds first. I need to work it and get it to have young tree vigor because it has been growing wild for a decade (i guess he did some pionching) but it has lost it's refinement. I need to produce back budding so I can make thick pads and tighten up the tree. I will probably put the worked ball into a pond basket instead of a training pot so I can encourage more feeder roots and bring vigor back quickly. IMO the pot it was in was too shallow for a pine.