Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Not sure about that. Focusing in on media here. Might be a topic of a new thread though.
Cheers
DSD sends
Cheers
DSD sends
What type of azalea media (substrate) do you use?
- Thread starter Deep Sea Diver
- Start date
Arlithrien
Shohin
This is one of those quality threads you stumble upon 10 years afterwards and wish you could have been apart of it.
I never knew kanuma was different from pumice. And sadly the Japanese version is once again superior to its western counterpart.
I'm using 2 parts pumice, 1 part pine bark and what's left of turface that O'Reilly's sold me, claiming it was the same as Optisorb DE.
I never knew kanuma was different from pumice. And sadly the Japanese version is once again superior to its western counterpart.
I'm using 2 parts pumice, 1 part pine bark and what's left of turface that O'Reilly's sold me, claiming it was the same as Optisorb DE.
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
Really, it isn't. There are plenty of other substrates that are just as good as anything out of Japan.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I think they sold you diatomaceous earth, not high fired montmorillonite clay.
btw, Turface MVP (the brand name product and/or high fired montmorillonite clay) is great for azaleas/rhodies.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
This is interesting. When I did the survey, which could of been much better, yet was constrained by the survey software, I came up with a whole bunch of questions about what works well vice what was actually the best media to use... and what that meant on a number of criteria.
I’ve heard from lots of folks since then about what they believe works... even what they think works best. Nowhere have I seen data showing what works best, or which criteria were used. Maybe it’s just not worth the time it takes to figure this out. However I’m still searching for hard data on this question today... if there even is a simple answer to this question.
The survey did show our respondents use kanuma more as a media component than other media’s. Nothing else. Not how their trees did, how long it had been used etc.
When researching media for azaleas, the only thing I found that even hinted at “what was the best media” point was a Japanese website that spoke briefly of the years after 1910 when wire started to be used in Japan on Bonsai.
This allowed azaleas to be styled in the “standard conifer styles”. Formerly the azaleas were all clip and grow, mostly into clump style.
The comment was something like... After wire was introduced, many very old garden azaleas were dug up and were attempted to be made into bonsai. However these trees did not do well until kanuma was used in the pots and then this soil came into widespread use.... Sometime during the 1920’s...
If anyone does have actual hard data, I’d really love to see it.
I can tell you my azaleas in pots do well in kanuma. Yet my azaleas planted in the ground to grow out do well in peat/fir bark/soil. What does this information mean? Beats me... I’ve limited data.
Yet I know @Osoyoung’s potted azaleas do well in Turface ... and he’s only about an hour and a quarter drive from me on a good traffic day.
Thus it’s a debatable question IMHO.
Climate, pests, watering routines, expertise with the tree and other human and environmental factors make any one media a tough sell as the best to use.
But what we all do know is if what one is using doesn’t work.... it’s time to look at yourself and possibly at a different media.
Cheers
DSD sends.
I’ve heard from lots of folks since then about what they believe works... even what they think works best. Nowhere have I seen data showing what works best, or which criteria were used. Maybe it’s just not worth the time it takes to figure this out. However I’m still searching for hard data on this question today... if there even is a simple answer to this question.
The survey did show our respondents use kanuma more as a media component than other media’s. Nothing else. Not how their trees did, how long it had been used etc.
When researching media for azaleas, the only thing I found that even hinted at “what was the best media” point was a Japanese website that spoke briefly of the years after 1910 when wire started to be used in Japan on Bonsai.
This allowed azaleas to be styled in the “standard conifer styles”. Formerly the azaleas were all clip and grow, mostly into clump style.
The comment was something like... After wire was introduced, many very old garden azaleas were dug up and were attempted to be made into bonsai. However these trees did not do well until kanuma was used in the pots and then this soil came into widespread use.... Sometime during the 1920’s...
If anyone does have actual hard data, I’d really love to see it.
I can tell you my azaleas in pots do well in kanuma. Yet my azaleas planted in the ground to grow out do well in peat/fir bark/soil. What does this information mean? Beats me... I’ve limited data.
Yet I know @Osoyoung’s potted azaleas do well in Turface ... and he’s only about an hour and a quarter drive from me on a good traffic day.
Thus it’s a debatable question IMHO.
Climate, pests, watering routines, expertise with the tree and other human and environmental factors make any one media a tough sell as the best to use.
But what we all do know is if what one is using doesn’t work.... it’s time to look at yourself and possibly at a different media.
Cheers
DSD sends.
bwaynef
Masterpiece
I repotted a friends trees this spring who was having some health issues. There were some pretty large imported Satsuki among them. For whatever reason, there were several different mixes these azaleas were in. The ones that were in straight Kanuma were resoundingly healthier than any of the other mixes. Kanuma & Pumice were pretty close, and the difference in health could be attributed to something other than soil for this one. The further away from straight kanuma the mix strayed, the resulting health of the tree seemed to follow. Bark seemed to be the biggest offender, followed by small particle clay ...and I'm suspicious of Perma-Til/Shale.
(They all went into straight Kanuma ...after sifting.)
(They all went into straight Kanuma ...after sifting.)
Arlithrien
Shohin
They sold me a product called "thriftysorb" which I believe is a black monto clay. I have some red turface and it appears to be very similar other than color. Not the same as the NAPA DE I use in most of my trees.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Harunobu
Chumono
Yes, it was very interesting to find a comment from a reputable Japanese source that was summarizing the origins as satsuki as a bonsai subject, and then mentioning kanuma soil as the crucial breakthrough. But it didn't say what soil types they used that did not work, or why they died. I suspect they tried peat and that they died because of the rainy season in Japan being in the middle of the summer. But it may also very well be that they used the other traditional bonsai substrates, and that they weren't acid enough?
They must have known back then in Japan that rhododendron love peat. Not sure if they have peat bogs in Japan, though. Seems a logical step to recreate the type of soil their native azaleas grew on. And that is often volcanic rock with a thin layer of soil.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Here’s and excerpt from Henning’s Home Page, (rhodyman) an awesome Rhody/azalea site about over wintering young evergreen azaleas.
It’s not a bonsai site, but a really common sense site for horticultural matters and a wide variety of other items.
Most evergreen azaleas may be propagated from stem cuttings. Most evergreen azaleas do not develop their full hardiness until after three seasons. In general, they need protection their first three winters after they are rooted. Normally, they will be grown in a protected area the first winter. Then they will be container grown in protected areas the second year. Then the third winter they will be field grown in a somewhat protected area. Then the fourth winter they should have reached their full hardiness.
Cheers
DSD sends
It’s not a bonsai site, but a really common sense site for horticultural matters and a wide variety of other items.
Most evergreen azaleas may be propagated from stem cuttings. Most evergreen azaleas do not develop their full hardiness until after three seasons. In general, they need protection their first three winters after they are rooted. Normally, they will be grown in a protected area the first winter. Then they will be container grown in protected areas the second year. Then the third winter they will be field grown in a somewhat protected area. Then the fourth winter they should have reached their full hardiness.
Cheers
DSD sends
River's Edge
Masterpiece
If one is looking for a substitute for Kanuma to use with Satsuki Azalea I would try to come close to the following key characteristics of Kanuma.
1. Pores in the grains that allow the substance to hold more moisture. Kanuma holds 20% more water than Akadama, Whereas coarse sand or grit holds 17% less than Akadama for example. Thus it would be helpful to know the moisture retention rate of the substrate you are considering.
2. Grain size and shape that makes for comparable drainage and ventilation in the mix. irregular with suitable structural integrity. This data suggests that a minimum grain size of 2mm is preferred with all smaller sizes sifted out and irregular shape for better drainage and ventilation.
3. Comparable PH value in the range of 5.6 to 6.4. Based on Azalea preferring acidic conditions in the substrate.
For those looking for factual reference material on soil discussions, one source is Chapter Eight from the book The Secret techniques of Bonsai, written by Masakumi Kawasumi II along with his son Maskumi Kawasumi III. ( 2005)
Masakumi Kawasumi III has the distinction of being born into a Japanese Tool Making family, well trained in Bonsai and recognized as a tree doctor specializing in Bonsai by the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in Japan.
The appendix on Japanese Soil Types provides additional data for consideration.
Similar data is usually available from the manufacturer or distributor of components used as soil supplements or replacements. For example the CanLava website displays information on the lava they package and sell. Similar data is available from Pumice companies that mine, package and distribute pumice.
A more recent discussion of components and common misperceptions can be found in Michael Hagedorn's new book Bonsai Heresy, in the section on growing media and repotting. ( 2020)
Selecting an alternative that has similar characteristics can be a good place to start, and a likely explanation as to why some alternative combinations are better than others.
My recommendation would be pumice and fir bark combination. Sifted to size and in proportions suitable for one's climate and watering habits. If I am unable to get Kanuma that would be my choice. The drawbacks for me are the decomposition of the Fir bark and the colour of the pumice. But from a strictly functional viewpoint it would be a preference to try.
Just some thoughts on the topic.
1. Pores in the grains that allow the substance to hold more moisture. Kanuma holds 20% more water than Akadama, Whereas coarse sand or grit holds 17% less than Akadama for example. Thus it would be helpful to know the moisture retention rate of the substrate you are considering.
2. Grain size and shape that makes for comparable drainage and ventilation in the mix. irregular with suitable structural integrity. This data suggests that a minimum grain size of 2mm is preferred with all smaller sizes sifted out and irregular shape for better drainage and ventilation.
3. Comparable PH value in the range of 5.6 to 6.4. Based on Azalea preferring acidic conditions in the substrate.
For those looking for factual reference material on soil discussions, one source is Chapter Eight from the book The Secret techniques of Bonsai, written by Masakumi Kawasumi II along with his son Maskumi Kawasumi III. ( 2005)
Masakumi Kawasumi III has the distinction of being born into a Japanese Tool Making family, well trained in Bonsai and recognized as a tree doctor specializing in Bonsai by the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in Japan.
The appendix on Japanese Soil Types provides additional data for consideration.
Similar data is usually available from the manufacturer or distributor of components used as soil supplements or replacements. For example the CanLava website displays information on the lava they package and sell. Similar data is available from Pumice companies that mine, package and distribute pumice.
A more recent discussion of components and common misperceptions can be found in Michael Hagedorn's new book Bonsai Heresy, in the section on growing media and repotting. ( 2020)
Selecting an alternative that has similar characteristics can be a good place to start, and a likely explanation as to why some alternative combinations are better than others.
My recommendation would be pumice and fir bark combination. Sifted to size and in proportions suitable for one's climate and watering habits. If I am unable to get Kanuma that would be my choice. The drawbacks for me are the decomposition of the Fir bark and the colour of the pumice. But from a strictly functional viewpoint it would be a preference to try.
Just some thoughts on the topic.
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
I just leave them out all the time, they don't need that much protection.
