Yes, few times a season does not harm any trees, it is inexpensive, so why not. I really do not have any expertise what my water contains and have never had chlorotic leaves.
What is this "discolouration"on my Chinese Elm?
- Thread starter Ingvill
- Start date
I’m also in a very hard water area.
I have 2 large water butts which I used for watering during the first 6-10 months of my Bonsai career.. I then turned to tap water off suggestion from here and research. Yes you get some white build at times, I mostly notice it on the base or surface roots/wood of my chinese elms and on the leaves of my olive.
I do not believe it’s harmful. I’ve tries a spray of 1 teaspoon vinegar to 1 litre of water, sprayed all over the tree, inside if it helped really but it comes recommended online.
I tend to water the soil not the trees although once growth has hardened off in summer, I should water the whole tree (I’m not gonna argue with Walter P on this one, he said it and I completely agree).
Main reason I wait for hardening is cos of black spot on elms (even though I’ve treated them with a systematic fungicide specifically for black spot). Prevention over cure and all that.
My summary? Don’t worry. The white you see may well be the extent of it. And it’ll not build up anymore.. try the spray if you like @Ingvill ? It can’t hurt and if it helps, great. Let me know if it works
I have 2 large water butts which I used for watering during the first 6-10 months of my Bonsai career.. I then turned to tap water off suggestion from here and research. Yes you get some white build at times, I mostly notice it on the base or surface roots/wood of my chinese elms and on the leaves of my olive.
I do not believe it’s harmful. I’ve tries a spray of 1 teaspoon vinegar to 1 litre of water, sprayed all over the tree, inside if it helped really but it comes recommended online.
I tend to water the soil not the trees although once growth has hardened off in summer, I should water the whole tree (I’m not gonna argue with Walter P on this one, he said it and I completely agree).
Main reason I wait for hardening is cos of black spot on elms (even though I’ve treated them with a systematic fungicide specifically for black spot). Prevention over cure and all that.
My summary? Don’t worry. The white you see may well be the extent of it. And it’ll not build up anymore.. try the spray if you like @Ingvill ? It can’t hurt and if it helps, great. Let me know if it works
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Worry - that white can cause for you ------ kidney stones.
Good Day
Anthony
Good Day
Anthony
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
I use tap water which in my area is some of the hardest possible. It is around 23 dGH, which is TWICE of what is already called VERY hard water. I water with a garden hose everything, icnlcuding all my collection trees. My water is hard mainly from calcium. Elms love hard water, so waht is all this fuss about? If you can drink it, if you cook with it, if your dog drinks it you can use it for trees.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Water hardness caused by calcium and magnesium is not directly harmful to plants. However in the presence of high pH, calcium will buffer the pH and help to keep the soil alkaline - even in the presence of slightly acidic rain or acidic fertilizer. If you have a potted plant with a lot of calcium buildup in the soil, it may be difficult to keep the pH low - particularly if the water you use is both hard AND alkaline.
Once pH rises above 7.8, it becomes progressively difficult for plants to take up iron and some other minerals. Here in Southern California where our water has a pH of 8.0 out of the tap, AND is very high in calcium, it is not uncommon for plants to suffer from chlorosis due to lack of iron - even when there is plenty of iron in the soil.
This is compounded by the fact that we have very little natural rainfall and almost all of our bonsai use irrigated water full time.
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bonsai-ben
Mame
PS -- If you water the pot, not the tree, you get less of this type of overspray. Hard water is only applied to a leaf by your hand and your hose or your irrigation misters. You put it there, so find a way for the water to *not* water the leaves, and water the soil, which is whats supposed to happen. (Species dependent, of course but as applied to Elm, there is zero reason to ever get the trunk or the leaves "wet" from your garden hoses.
You put it there, so find a way for the water to *not* water the leaves, and water the soil, which is whats supposed to happen. (Species dependent, of course but as applied to Elm, there is zero reason to ever get the trunk or the leaves "wet" from your garden hoses.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Water high in calcium and magnesium can actually help DECREASE the risk of kidney stones. Dehydration is the primary cause of them...
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/5-steps-for-preventing-kidney-stones-201310046721
hemmy
Omono
I agree with the above posted comments that you generally don’t have to worry about your water quality. . . until your plants show you that you have to start worrying about your water quality. Mr. Pall’s trees (and especially his maples) are obviously not affected by his hard water, but his alkalinity also not be extremely high. If I read the Munich water quality report correctly, their Alkalinity is 2.89 mmol/l (144.5ppm). This is just outside the optimum range of 140ppm for nurseries but under the upper limit of 200ppm as reported by the University of Arkansas (these levels vary considerably depending on application). Plus Munich also gets ~805mm (37.5”) of rain per year (Wikipedia). I got 6” (152mm) this rain year in So Cal. Many of the nurseries acidify their water in my area, houses use water softeners, and I can only drink beer in the restaurants because the water is so poor!
To my point, what the head ‘Nut wrote is also important enough to repeat and I’d also reword it as, generally high pH water is caused by high alkalinity water (as with all things in nature, there are some exceptions). High alkalinity water is mostly caused by dissolved bicarbonates (HCO3) bound with Ca, Mg, or Na. I believe it is the buffering effect or the consumption of H+ that raises the pH. It is these dissolved bicarbonates precipitating into Ca and Mg carbonates (CO3) that forms the lime or scale deposits. All of these dissolved minerals accumulate and create less soluble complexes with other micronutrients (e.g., iron) making them less available to the roots. The double charge of the Ca makes it especially dominant in forming these complexes and locking up nutrients. Keeping my young azaleas wetter and in high peat seems to limit this precipitate effect. But I have a very thin margin for error in my watering and fertilizing. Especially when we only get 6” of rain.
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
I do not use Munich water. I have water form the local community. The water comes from the gravel that the ice age left. The gravel is pure calcium. My water has 22 to 23 German degrees. My water is much harder than the Munich water. My trees don't know all this. They look healthier than any trees that I see when I travel. Come and see for yourself.
AJL
Chumono
Hi Moke sorry - I guess we all live in different climates ! How much rainfall do you get in Utah? I was just responding to Ingvills original question and she lives in Norway which has plenty of rain!!
https://www.bonsainut.com/members/ingvill.22664/report
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
That will never happen if you simply sprinkle some elemental sulfur on the soil. Trust me.
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
[QUOTE="Walter Pall, post: 560271, member: 103"Come and see for yourself.[/QUOTE]
Now there is a heck of an invite!
Now there is a heck of an invite!
Thank you all for your input!
Who knew how much "weird stuff" we gotta learn with this hobby
I have checked numbers for our particular water supplier:
dH: 0.7 (dH: German hardness grade. It equals 12.5 ppm according to an online converter).
pH: 7.7
Calcium: 4.8 mg/l
Alcalinity: 0.27 mmol/l
So my water is actually classified as "very soft water"??
But it still leaves calcium residues, and not only on trees. But on surfaces where water stands still for some time, like around the water edge in toilets etc.
Because of that we have always assumed we have quite hard water.
If the water or white residue is not harmful to my trees, then I won't fuss over it.
I have 15 trees, will be 20-25 by end of summer, so using tap water is by far the most convenient for me.
Who knew how much "weird stuff" we gotta learn with this hobby
I have checked numbers for our particular water supplier:
dH: 0.7 (dH: German hardness grade. It equals 12.5 ppm according to an online converter).
pH: 7.7
Calcium: 4.8 mg/l
Alcalinity: 0.27 mmol/l
So my water is actually classified as "very soft water"??
But it still leaves calcium residues, and not only on trees. But on surfaces where water stands still for some time, like around the water edge in toilets etc.
Because of that we have always assumed we have quite hard water.
If the water or white residue is not harmful to my trees, then I won't fuss over it.
I have 15 trees, will be 20-25 by end of summer, so using tap water is by far the most convenient for me.
hemmy
Omono
Unfortunately, you have great water! But good news, I have more for you to worry about! You may want to find or check your fertilizers for macro/micronutrients (for Ca, Mg, Mn, etc.) since your water may not be supplying enough.
Your supplier is probably raising the pH to prevent your water from being acidic and corrosive to your plumbing. They could be using calcium carbonate (although your Ca is low), magnesium oxide, or even a sodium compound. Probably nothing to worry about, but as a last check, you could look at the report for the sodium levels.
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Honestly, don't see anything on the tree proper. White stuff on the container? I don't know, have you fertilized? And if so, with what? Lot's of salts in fertilizer and they leave residue much like this white chalky substance shown in your photo of the container.
hemmy
Omono
I’d like to hear more about your experience with sulfur. How alkaline is your water, how much and often do you apply it to say a gallon nursery container, and do you use organics with your inorganic substrate (I’m assuming from your previous posts that you use DE and other inorganics)?
I have been using Espoma soil acidifier (mostly elemental and some gypsum derived sulfur) with decent results. Maybe I’ll get an expensive pH meter to play with for my birthday and do some leachate tests. I found the below article interesting. While it touts the ineffectiveness of sulfur to lower container media pH, the 3 reasons that it doesn’t work for short turnaround greenhouse plants are the exact reason it could work for our application.
1. Bacteria have to oxidize the sulfur to eventually convert it to sulfuric acid. Using organic fertilizer should assist here.
2. & 3. Time, greenhouse crops finish in 3-12 weeks, not long enough for bacteria to buildup and some sulfur can take months to breakdown. A few years in a bonsai pot should check this off the list!
https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/myth-series-sulfur-drops-the-ph-of-growing-media/
