What happens when dwarf JWP is grafted to Pinus strobiformis (SW White Pine)?

[Japonicus]

I am not sure what you’re getting at with the “outcompetes” question.

Outcompete as with landscape Japanese Maples in the landscape business where
the root stock is eternally larger than the cultivar.
Strobis and Strobiformis are much more energetic in ground on their own

The better JWP on JBP grafts will have a branch very close to the graft union. That branch is trained so that some foliage obscures the graft union from view.

As with the one I have where the graft is about 5” above the soil
another reason to have that 1st branch there so close to the union
is the fatten the trunk of the scion, blending the two, so the caliper
tapers better, rather than stepping off with a more noticeable caliper.

I never questioned using JWP grafted for bonsai.
There’s no question the better quality. It would be absurd to assume otherwise.
I emailed Brent at EGGW but probably futile. He’s discontinued JWP.
I certainly do not have the money to buy a JWP bonsai. Pre bonsai at best
but not for some time will I be able to do so hands on. Folks preach to buy several
of a type of tree and work on it to learn the species and gain experience.
I’m tryin. Plus I will have 6 cultivars of JWP to choose from to graft with if I
ever get around to that.

I will certainly need some coaching through development and refinement.
For that I have 5 cultivars. The 6th one is a 10’ landscape specimen of an
unknown cultivar that looks promising for scions.

 

[Japonicus]

Here is a SW White Pine I started as a seedling on this lace rock over 10 years ago. It has survived the Colorado Front Range, the Williamette Valley and Central OR winters. A bit of a challenge with Root On Rock plantings. Still going strong. View attachment 341359View attachment 341360

Appreciate the promising info. Good to know. So I should expect much better than zone 8 hardiness
cited by conifersociety.org and conifers.org lol!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thanks @Arcto - if strobiliformis survives Colorado Front Range winters, it will likely have no problem with Chicago area winters. Thanks.

 

[Japonicus]

Nothing to do with this thread really, but while I've got you here @Arcto I'm curious if
you've had the same misfortune trying to bend branches on your strobiformis
as I've had with strobis. Every time I try to bend branches down on my strobis
that are bigger than a pencil, they snap like deciduous tree branches.
Nothing like the JWP and other pines I have.

 

[Arcto]

Nothing to do with this thread really, but while I've got you here @Arcto I'm curious if
you've had the same misfortune trying to bend branches on your strobiformis
as I've had with strobis. Every time I try to bend branches down on my strobis
that are bigger than a pencil, they snap like deciduous tree branches.
Nothing like the JWP and other pines I have.

You can see in the pic I posted earlier that I was able to put some pretty serious bends on that tree. It was also a very young tree. Another 5 needle pine, Limber has a reputation for breaking when attempting to bend older wood. When working on my Limber and others at Ryan’s classes, he always wrapped branches with dry raffia before bending. He has a lot of experience with the species. We were able to bend 3/4” older branches on my tree without breakage or loss. You may want to try that approach with your strobus. BTW, I used dry raffia on my SWP trunk when I did those big bends.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Nothing to do with this thread really, but while I've got you here @Arcto I'm curious if
you've had the same misfortune trying to bend branches on your strobiformis
as I've had with strobis. Every time I try to bend branches down on my strobis
that are bigger than a pencil, they snap like deciduous tree branches.
Nothing like the JWP and other pines I have.

Also bending can be done by stages over several weeks with perhaps 2 weeks rest between stages. Used this technique to pull down hardened branches at trunk joint on JBP in 3-4 stages. Did after Summer harden off when healing more likely.

 

[Japonicus]

You can see in the pic I posted earlier that I was able to put some pretty serious bends on that tree. It was also a very young tree. Another 5 needle pine, Limber has a reputation for breaking when attempting to bend older wood. When working on my Limber and others at Ryan’s classes, he always wrapped branches with dry raffia before bending. He has a lot of experience with the species. We were able to bend 3/4” older branches on my tree without breakage or loss. You may want to try that approach with your strobus. BTW, I used dry raffia on my SWP trunk when I did those big bends.

Yes thanks. I knew this one had been styled from an earlier age.
The one I'm working with has pretty good bark 2/3 the way up the trunk.
Got started wiring on it a couple days ago and one branch snapped that had done so previously
and healed, that I'd forgotten about on the left side. Had to move it back into upward position it came from to heal again
if it will. Another cracked on the right, but should be ok unless I forget and do it again.
I was considering literati this go around, but gave up on that pretty quick, unless I cut notches underneath branches to lower them.
What time of year is best for doing those notches or wedge removals?
EDIT: come to think about it, the branch that remains over the wedge will still crack.
The amount I'm wanting to angle these downward I do not trust with what skills I lack even with raffia.

 

[Adair M]

Yes thanks. I knew this one had been styled from an earlier age.
The one I'm working with has pretty good bark 2/3 the way up the trunk.
Got started wiring on it a couple days ago and one branch snapped that had done so previously
and healed, that I'd forgotten about on the left side. Had to move it back into upward position it came from to heal again
if it will. Another cracked on the right, but should be ok unless I forget and do it again.
I was considering literati this go around, but gave up on that pretty quick, unless I cut notches underneath branches to lower them.
What time of year is best for doing those notches or wedge removals?
EDIT: come to think about it, the branch that remains over the wedge will still crack.
The amount I'm wanting to angle these downward I do not trust with what skills I lack even with raffia.
View attachment 341620

Well...

Don’t try to bend it down by removing a wedge, start by cutting on the top of trunk-branch joint. And pulling the branch down and out away from the trunk. This keeps the water line from the branch to the roots intact. When you try cutting a bottom wedge out, you are disrupting the waterline, and to keep the branch alive, the tree has to create a new waterline. It might not,

@Dav4 has done this with pines. Dave, do you mind showing some pictures of you trees where you’ve cracked the branch off the trunk in order to lower it?

 

[Dav4]

Well...

Don’t try to bend it down by removing a wedge, start by cutting on the top of trunk-branch joint. And pulling the branch down and out away from the trunk. This keeps the water line from the branch to the roots intact. When you try cutting a bottom wedge out, you are disrupting the waterline, and to keep the branch alive, the tree has to create a new waterline. It might not,

@Dav4 has done this with pines. Dave, do you mind showing some pictures of you trees where you’ve cracked the branch off the trunk in order to lower it?

Pics coming tomorrow... but this is what the branch I lowered looked like after I used a chisel to cut into the trunk at the upper area where the branch leaves the trunk... maybe 18 months ago.

 

[Japonicus]

Well...

Don’t try to bend it down by removing a wedge, start by cutting on the top of trunk-branch joint. And pulling the branch down and out away from the trunk. This keeps the water line from the branch to the roots intact. When you try cutting a bottom wedge out, you are disrupting the waterline, and to keep the branch alive, the tree has to create a new waterline. It might not,

@Dav4 has done this with pines. Dave, do you mind showing some pictures of you trees where you’ve cracked the branch off the trunk in order to lower it?

Ok. Thanks for your intervention Obviously I've never performed this task, and do recall
the waterline you mention now, from another tread talking about cracking a branch on purpose.
I thought pulling the wood down against itself matching up the wood, (where the triangular shaped wedge was
cut from underneath) would be like a graft healing. Is this incorrect thinking? Just my thought process, not following any advice
to come to that...theory really.

Pics coming tomorrow... but this is what the branch I lowered looked like after I used a chisel to cut into the trunk at the upper area where the branch leaves the trunk... maybe 18 months ago.
View attachment 341670

Thanks for answering the call Dave. Looking forward to seeing how this is done. Do you have a thread with the particulars?

 

[Dav4]

Ok. Thanks for your intervention Obviously I've never performed this task, and do recall

the waterline you mention now, from another tread talking about cracking a branch on purpose.
I thought pulling the wood down against itself matching up the wood, (where the triangular shaped wedge was
cut from underneath) would be like a graft healing. Is this incorrect thinking? Just my thought process, not following any advice
to come to that...theory really.

Thanks for answering the call Dave. Looking forward to seeing how this is done. Do you have a thread with the part

Ok. Thanks for your intervention Obviously I've never performed this task, and do recall
the waterline you mention now, from another tread talking about cracking a branch on purpose.
I thought pulling the wood down against itself matching up the wood, (where the triangular shaped wedge was
cut from underneath) would be like a graft healing. Is this incorrect thinking? Just my thought process, not following any advice
to come to that...theory really.

Thanks for answering the call Dave. Looking forward to seeing how this is done. Do you have a thread with the particulars?

Not really, but I’ll take some pictures tomorrow of the tree with notched/lowered branch that may help you understand the procedure.

 

[Adair M]

Ok. Thanks for your intervention Obviously I've never performed this task, and do recall
the waterline you mention now, from another tread talking about cracking a branch on purpose.
I thought pulling the wood down against itself matching up the wood, (where the triangular shaped wedge was
cut from underneath) would be like a graft healing. Is this incorrect thinking? Just my thought process, not following any advice
to come to that...theory really.

Thanks for answering the call Dave. Looking forward to seeing how this is done. Do you have a thread with the particulars?

Some trees can survive a wedge cut from the bottom. But pines have a harder time with it. Unfortunately, severing the waterline can kill the branch before the “graft” takes. And if it isn’t “perfectly” lined up, the grafting never takes place.

If it makes you feel better, Naka’s Goshin was created by cutting the top of the crotch, and pulling the branch down and out. Often a pebble is placed in the split to help hold the new position. In time, the callous covers over the pebble.

 

[Japonicus]

Some trees can survive a wedge cut from the bottom. But pines have a harder time with it. Unfortunately, severing the waterline can kill the branch before the “graft” takes. And if it isn’t “perfectly” lined up, the grafting never takes place.

If it makes you feel better, Naka’s Goshin was created by cutting the top of the crotch, and pulling the branch down and out. Often a pebble is placed in the split to help hold the new position. In time, the callous covers over the pebble.

Good deal. I'll see how Dave goes about it. Not sure what % of the branch at the shoulder should be cut
and if it varies with how brittle a branch may be. These things are very brittle except for the smallest secondary branches.
If this fails perhaps I learn to graft that landscape JWP onto this and a thunderhead I have...
My JWP may not be 10' tall, but at least 8' so I have something to start with anyway.

 

[Adair M]

Good deal. I'll see how Dave goes about it. Not sure what % of the branch at the shoulder should be cut
and if it varies with how brittle a branch may be. These things are very brittle except for the smallest secondary branches.
If this fails perhaps I learn to graft that landscape JWP onto this and a thunderhead I have...
My JWP may not be 10' tall, but at least 8' so I have something to start with anyway.

When you make the split, you really cut into the trunk more than into the branch. It’s really a “trunk split” more that a “branch split”.

 

[Dav4]

This the tree, a JBP close to 20 years old, that I used the notching technique 18 months ago to lower a large branch.


You can see the branch in question coming off the back of the tree


Here is a better picture taken from the back. The notch is easily seen here.



The placement of the chisel here more or less represents the angle I used when cutting into the trunk, though it was probably a bit more shallow then what the picture shows. The cut was initiated in the crotch created where the top of the branch and the trunk intersect and probably was close to a 45 degree angle- too shallow an angle and you might shear off or lose the branch- too steep an angle and you'll never be able to move the branch at it's base. I used a hammer to move the chisel, and after each "whack" or two, I'd assess the ability to change the angle of the branch. I'd say my cut was eventually almost 2 cm deep before I got the mobility that was needed. Instead of shoving a pebble into the cut, I chose to use a guy wire to hold the branch in it's new orientation. I'd say the branch was lowered at least 15-20 degrees, which was more then enough... but I could have moved it further if warranted. The wound has healed well and will likely be covered up in bark in a few years.


My weapon of choice.

 

[Japonicus]

This the tree, a JBP close to 20 years old, that I used the notching technique 18 months ago to lower a large branch.
View attachment 341776

You can see the branch in question coming off the back of the tree
View attachment 341777

Here is a better picture taken from the back. The notch is easily seen here.

View attachment 341778View attachment 341779

The placement of the chisel here more or less represents the angle I used when cutting into the trunk, though it was probably a bit more shallow then what the picture shows. The cut was initiated in the crotch created where the top of the branch and the trunk intersect and probably was close to a 45 degree angle- too shallow an angle and you might shear off or lose the branch- too steep an angle and you'll never be able to move the branch at it's base. I used a hammer to move the chisel, and after each "whack" or two, I'd assess the ability to change the angle of the branch. I'd say my cut was eventually almost 2 cm deep before I got the mobility that was needed. Instead of shoving a pebble into the cut, I chose to use a guy wire to hold the branch in it's new orientation. I'd say the branch was lowered at least 15-20 degrees, which was more then enough... but I could have moved it further if warranted. The wound has healed well and will likely be covered up in bark in a few years.
View attachment 341780View attachment 341781View attachment 341782

My weapon of choice.
View attachment 341783

Good morning Dave. Thanks for taking the time to share this method and your results.
Glad it has healed over well. 2 cm on my ruler is >3/4" .
This brings a few questions to the table. The bark appears to be a cork and so chunky that your placement
appears to be outside of the shoulder, but probably just the 2D pic. I will demonstrate with a picture below
where I think you're referring to, on the inside of the shoulder right at the crotch, or might the shoulders'
fibers extend a little further up the trunk?

What time of year did you do this?
I think Bonsai Nut said a nursery near him does their grafts after the 1st of the year if I remember right
and that seems to be a similar category as far as injurious methods are concerned, but I could be wrong.

I'm sure it will be different for different trees, but what % of the basil flare of your branch would 2cm be?

Ok, here's 3 branches and my take on your direction.

How many branches would you perform this on a typically healthy tree at a time. My guess would be one per year.

 

[Dav4]

Good morning Dave. Thanks for taking the time to share this method and your results.
Glad it has healed over well. 2 cm on my ruler is >3/4" .
This brings a few questions to the table. The bark appears to be a cork and so chunky that your placement
appears to be outside of the shoulder, but probably just the 2D pic. I will demonstrate with a picture below
where I think you're referring to, on the inside of the shoulder right at the crotch, or might the shoulders'
fibers extend a little further up the trunk?

The cut was made right at the crotch... the placement of your chisel in the pictures you provided is pretty much where I'd cut. It's hard to tell from my pictures because the branch is coming off the middle of a sharp curve, and the bark is very plated/mature (not a corker, though).

What time of year did you do this?

The work was done mid to late March if I recall, after it was re-potted.

I think Bonsai Nut said a nursery near him does their grafts after the 1st of the year if I remember right
and that seems to be a similar category as far as injurious methods are concerned, but I could be wrong.

I'm sure it will be different for different trees, but what % of the basil flare of your branch would 2cm be?

Ok, here's 3 branches and my take on your direction.

How many branches would you perform this on a typically healthy tree at a time. My guess would be one per year.

I wouldn't hesitate to perform the procedure on multiple branches if it's warranted. If done correctly, it really won't weaken the tree too much.

View attachment 341805View attachment 341806View attachment 341807

 

[Japonicus]

The cut was made right at the crotch... the placement of your chisel in the pictures you provided is pretty much where I'd cut. It's hard to tell from my pictures because the branch is coming off the middle of a sharp curve, and the bark is very plated/mature (not a corker, though).

The work was done mid to late March if I recall, after it was re-potted.

I wouldn't hesitate to perform the procedure on multiple branches if it's warranted. If done correctly, it really won't weaken the tree too much.

I should've recognized it wasn't a corker using my young brocade as a reference.
So March it is, and I would do this prior to potting up while it's firm in its' pot
then being gentle repotting...I think, maybe even same day, using an inorganic spacer like a pebble
then coming back to it after repot using a guy wire perhaps.
Thanks again for the info. I will do this and am eager to do so.

Thing is the angle of decent will be much greater than 15-20º, more like 45º.

 

[Adair M]

I should've recognized it wasn't a corker using my young brocade as a reference.
So March it is, and I would do this prior to potting up while it's firm in its' pot
then being gentle repotting...I think, maybe even same day, using an inorganic spacer like a pebble
then coming back to it after repot using a guy wire perhaps.
Thanks again for the info. I will do this and am eager to do so.

Thing is the angle of decent will be much greater than 15-20º, more like 45º.

If you make the angle greater, you need to chisel deeper.

 

[Japonicus]

If you make the angle greater, you need to chisel deeper.

I'm ready! Thanks again for understanding my dilemma and summonsing Dave.
I'm glad I added this side note after @Arcto posted his tree.
Really saddens me that I overworked and lost this one...


They were the same age and from the same batch, one planted in ground one potted.
Had I followed my own knowledge and worked this down more gradually it would be here today.

WP in ground "style" too far gone ?

I'm not very good with pines at all, but they live. I lost my 1st pine, a BP to needle cast early this Summer and I get so confused on techniques that a workshop, no, many workshops, is the only way I'm ever going to learn techniques with confidence. There are no bonsai clubs/workshops near me...

www.bonsainut.com

I've had this dwarf EWP around 14 yrs now. Have lost some important branches, so I will start with
chiseling the 1st lowest branch that really doesn't fit in with the current plan for the remainder of the tree.
So I get one practice shot.