Western Display Concepts

[Smoke]

Smoke, not that what you said was ridiculous, but the fact that no one knows what they say. refer to #111

ahhh got it....

 

[Mike Page]

I will have to be sure to show that to Daniel... he would likely enjoy to see it again... he remembers them all you know. It's quiet strange. I enjoyed the Haiku also...

I hope you'll take some photos of the display....

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

Hi Ms. Vic
My best regards to Dan. And, of course, to you.
I posted another image of the Ponderosa taken around 1989/90.

Mike

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Wow... Isn't it amazing to look back over years like that?

I have to say it's a wonderful example of the stasis pot culture creates in trees (as far as trunks go)... it's bigger of course... but nothing like it would be in the same enviornment in the ground. Not to say the tree needed ground time... it's clearly a large tree (I bet it weighs a bunch!). It's just an observation on why you have to have your trunks where you want them BEFORE you plunk them in a pot.

It has come a long way! I think it's great you kept it all this time.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

 

[Walter Pall]

After having delivered my third batch at the BMW exhibit on Friday morning I came to water on Saturday late afternoon. Wow! What had happened? They apparently spent about two hours to find the best way to put spotlights onto the trees 'to bring out their best'. A linden in bluish spotlight? I would not have dreamed of it before. A ponderosa pine in red light? Halloween? Overall it looks mystic, spooky. I am quite sure that the general public loves this.

I tried to speak to the art director about this shift in paradigm, about this concept of exhibiting bonsai which is strange to the bonsai community. She said 'these are not bonsai these are objects of art'. I tried to speak about tokonoma and seasonal felling and such and found no interest at all to speak about such hocus pocus.

They have shown Giacometti sculptures a while ago. The insurance value of these was several hundred million US$. They showed them quite similar to how they show my 'art'. They never asked Giacometti whether he liked red spotlights on this sculptures.

What has happened here? It is a clear paradigm shift. Bonsai is definitely taken out of the context that we know so well. They actually take it away from us. Has bonsai arrived in Hollywood now? Or even Las Vegas? 'How deep can you fall?' some might ask.

'How high can you rise?' some might ask. Take the big hornbeam. A couple of years ago it was for sale. You could have gotten it for twentyfivehundred. Now they built a special stand which costs about three grand. Take the whole group of trees. Originally they cost me less than five grand altogether. Now they build a glass fence around them which costs about fifteen grand. To protect the art like animals in a zoo.

If this is not a western concept of displaying bonsai then what is?

It is like pieces of art which were made to be a part of a church setting - sculptures of saints which were meant to be placed in a religious context. And then they are exhibited in an art exhibit with colored spotlights like they have nothing to do with church. Not allowed to happen? It happens all the time. Go to a historical art museum and you will find thousand of such items exhibited outside their original context.

Another revelation: they don't know what a tokonoma is, they don't even know what a proper bonsai stand is or accent object. And they don't want to know. They handle art professionally and would to talk to an amateur in this field.

How do I feel? We'll see in a few weeks.

Since more than ten years the discussion went on the internet about bonsai being an art or a craft. Well, here it is definitely being treated as art. Is this what we expected?

One thing is for sure however: if we really want the real world and not just the bonsai world to appreciate our creations this is the way to go; in the West at least. It may well get out of our hands. But it may well bring a lot of attention and some money into the community.

Why is it that bonsai exhibits are in lousy places more often than not? It is because we cannot afford proper exhibit venues. If this paradigm shift gains momentum we could all of a sudden.

When do we know that the shift really has happened? When you look for a bonsai book in a library and find it in the art section.

 

[John Ruger]

Excellent points made, and yes, where do we find the bonsai books? In the garden section there's usually one (dated of course) tucked away from the dozen or so on how to cultivate cannibis and process hashish...

 

[Smoke]

Walter, I hope you will appreciate what is going on here. While I understand your need to voice your opinion about showing bonsai, I hope you can understand we are not talking about the same thing here. We are not comparing apples and apples. You are comparing apples and figs. This thread has more to do with Western display concepts useing the Japanese model of two point and three point display in a Tokonoma setting. The catylist being "can we place a more Western twist on it and still hold true to the Japanese asthetic while using familier western counterparts.

Please re read Victrinia's opening statement below, and then read your opinion on your statements on paradigm shifts in display. They are not even talking about the same thing.

You have been outspoken before about your opinions on three point displays useing Japanese display accesories and so given those opinions I don't feel your opinions about display in this context will be very well taken. I am sure there are those that feel the way you do but this discussion has more to do with those that find "that" sort of display appealing. I do both so I can give an objective opinion about both having displayed trees in an art museum twice.

If you will remember when you were in Fresno in 2003, we had the trees displayed in the lobby of the Hotel in an art museum motiff, not unlike what we see in your BMW display. In fact the podiums the trees were displayed on in the Hotel came from the Fresno Art Museum. In fact we had just finished a one month display of trees at the Art Gallery and so were able to snag the podiums for our convention.

I believe Bill Valvanis put forward the first formal attempt (that I know of) to have Western - meaning not overtly Japanese - displays on exhibit. I confess I didn't get it at first. But that was a year ago, and a lot can change in a year or even days. After reading everything Smoke has been putting up about alcove display in recent days, I've been finding myself dwelling on what that could look like for us as Westerners.

I don't think there is a thing wrong with using Eastern visual art modalities to express familiar Western concepts... so I've been playing with this in my mind for days now, and wanted to open it up to see if anyone else has been thinking of this as well. So by example, using something like a sumi painting style to express indigenous landscapes/things/vegetation is acceptable.

I think the problem with understanding good traditional display is often the concepts that ground them. If you are versed in Japanese/Asian culture and you know what the symbolism is... then you can appreciate it. And while I can enjoy a display without having to get into its subtleties, it is easier to let the mind lose itself within the artist’s expression if you can. So thinking of Western concepts... I tried to think of what I would put together if availability of objects was no limit. I’m not trying to anything too high-minded yet. I’m not that evolved.

I'd love to read what other people would conceive of as meaningful to them. I actually came up with more concepts than I'll list... but here are a few descriptions that I played with in my imagination.


Winter -

Tree – Fagus (Beech) or other white barked deciduous tree... planted in a white-ish pot oval pot - no rim - no fancy feet, on a very dark stand. Subdued and muted... the quietness of winter in its contrast.

Scroll - A very spare sumi painting of a snow angel. Something so subtle it is suggested more by its shadows made in the indentations than the outline itself.

Accent - a small bronze artwork of a child's mittens (the kind attached to each other by a string between) haphazardly dropped on the floor. Resting on a very low but slightly formal oval stand.

Inspiration: A child looks at winter with the most wonder... in his/her excitement to get out into the snow and cold to play... they've left their mittens at home on the floor. And they couldn't care less... because the magic of winter snow erases all other considerations. I can just see the child’s mother looking at those dropped mittens with amused exasperation.

(cont.)

After having delivered my third batch at the BMW exhibit on Friday morning I came to water on Saturday late afternoon. Wow! What had happened? They apparently spent about two hours to find the best way to put spotlights onto the trees 'to bring out their best'. A linden in bluish spotlight? I would not have dreamed of it before. A ponderosa pine in red light? Halloween? Overall it looks mystic, spooky. I am quite sure that the general public loves this.

I tried to speak to the art director about this shift in paradigm, about this concept of exhibiting bonsai which is strange to the bonsai community. She said 'these are not bonsai these are objects of art'. I tried to speak about tokonoma and seasonal felling and such and found no interest at all to speak about such hocus pocus.

They have shown Giacometti sculptures a while ago. The insurance value of these was several hundred million US$. They showed them quite similar to how they show my 'art'. They never asked Giacometti whether he liked red spotlights on this sculptures.

What has happened here? It is a clear paradigm shift. Bonsai is definitely taken out of the context that we know so well. They actually take it away from us. Has bonsai arrived in Hollywood now? Or even Las Vegas? 'How deep can you fall?' some might ask.

'How high can you rise?' some might ask. Take the big hornbeam. A couple of years ago it was for sale. You could have gotten it for twentyfivehundred. Now they built a special stand which costs about three grand. Take the whole group of trees. Originally they cost me less than five grand altogether. Now they build a glass fence around them which costs about fifteen grand. To protect the art like animals in a zoo.

If this is not a western concept of displaying bonsai then what is?

It is like pieces of art which were made to be a part of a church setting - sculptures of saints which were meant to be placed in a religious context. And then they are exhibited in an art exhibit with colored spotlights like they have nothing to do with church. Not allowed to happen? It happens all the time. Go to a historical art museum and you will find thousand of such items exhibited outside their original context.

Another revelation: they don't know what a tokonoma is, they don't even know what a proper bonsai stand is or accent object. And they don't want to know. They handle art professionally and would to talk to an amateur in this field.

How do I feel? We'll see in a few weeks.

Since more than ten years the discussion went on the internet about bonsai being an art or a craft. Well, here it is definitely being treated as art. Is this what we expected?

One thing is for sure however: if we really want the real world and not just the bonsai world to appreciate our creations this is the way to go; in the West at least. It may well get out of our hands. But it may well bring a lot of attention and some money into the community.

Why is it that bonsai exhibits are in lousy places more often than not? It is because we cannot afford proper exhibit venues. If this paradigm shift gains momentum we could all of a sudden.

When do we know that the shift really has happened? When you look for a bonsai book in a library and find it in the art section.

I would not expect many people to understand what a Tokonoma is. In fact I suspect that a person could walk the Ginza in Japan, ask 50 people what a Tokonoma is, and half would not know. Likewise, I could also ask who Uhaku Sudo, or Ichiu Katayama (two of the best Tokonoma display persons in Japan) are , and probaby no one would know who they are. So your remark is not out of place in far away Germany.

Had your remarks been placed in a thread started by you asking if this may be a paradigm shift in the way "STAND ALONE" bonsai are displayed, then we could continue to carry on intelligent conversation about how we may start to display stand alone bonsai better in the west.

Thanks,
Al

 

[rockm]

"What has happened here? It is a clear paradigm shift. Bonsai is definitely taken out of the context that we know so well. They actually take it away from us. Has bonsai arrived in Hollywood now? Or even Las Vegas? 'How deep can you fall?' some might ask."

Walter,

I think this display concept is, (forgive me, as I know it was probably a coup to get the trees placed in such a location) indeed 'Western," but perhaps not in the best way. Given the location, I can't really get past the feeling that this isn't so much "art display" as it is commoditization and commercial objectification. Given that the trees are "displayed" with high-end automobiles in a slick showroom, one can't help feel that they're being used as nothing more than props to sell upscale merchandise to a audience that might just be shopping for another status symbol. The trees could be seen as exclusive items that burnish the autos' image among that audience.

I'm not averse to owning a nice car, nor do I begrudge anyone who can afford one. I just find the juxtaposition of bonsai in such an environment a turn off. Trying to avoid that kind of commercial clang is one of the reasons I got into bonsai in the first place. It's honest at its heart and speaks to a deeper spiritual part of a person, getting beyond the consumer surface.

It's not so much "falling" as it is "grasping."

 

[Attila Soos]

I'm not averse to owning a nice car, nor do I begrudge anyone who can afford one. I just find the juxtaposition of bonsai in such an environment a turn off. Trying to avoid that kind of commercial clang is one of the reasons I got into bonsai in the first place.

Your honest feelings about this are appreciated by us (seriously), but this exhibit is not abot you, or about the bonsai community (people, that is). This is about the affluent community accepting bonsai as a popular means of entertainment, and as a status symbol. I see this as a big step forward.

As you know, paintings by Picasso, Van Gogh, and the like, are commending the prices they do, BECAUSE they are popular means of status symbol as well.

"Commoditization" and "Commercial objectification" are the best news that I can imagine, for bonsai to break out of its niche market. Take them to the Playboy Mansion, Disneyland, or my kid's puppet show, if you wish. Or to the Los Angeles MOCA and show them upside-down, on the ceiling, I don't care. And why would you expect anything else, from such a display? Did you really expect that bonsai in such a setting is displayed in order to make people contemplate on their love of nature, and the ephemeral nature of their happiness?

As far as I am concerned, I want to see bonsai taken away from us (bonsai people) and used for whatever purpose people want them, ignoring our feeling in the process. As long as the trees come back home healthy and happy, I couldn't be happier.
After the tree is back home, nobody will stop you from doing your esoteric Japanese displays in the neighborhood community center, that 5 people will attend, and only you and I can understand (sarcasm embedded, to make my point). You can do that every week, if you want, but exibits like Walter's, happen at rare occasions.

 

[rockm]

"As far as I am concerned, I want to see bonsai taken away from us (bonsai people) and used for whatever purpose people want them, ignoring our feeling in the process. As long as the trees come back home healthy and happy, I couldn't be happier.
After the tree is back home, nobody will stop you from doing your esoteric Japanese displays in the neighborhood community center, that 5 people will attend, and only you and I can understand (sarcasm embedded, to make my point). You can do that every week, if you want, but exibits like Walter's, happen at rare occasions."

Why the vitriolic vent, Attila? Sorry if I offended you with my maudlin feelings. but Do you REALLY believe bonsai is going to "break out of its niche market"? REALLY? Something that takes time to care for, requires regular maintenance and can't just be parked in the garage?

What exactly should people contemplate when looking at a bonsai? What's it's significance other than a conceptualization of nature? Nature is intrinsic in a tree. There's really no other way around it. Bonsai is not sculpture. Never will be. It is limited by its biology to be handled as such. It cannot be left inside untended for long No matter how many dollar signs anyone sees in it, nor how much self-important artistic hyperventilation it inspires, or awesome car dealership displays it banks.

 

[Attila Soos]

Why the vitriolic vent, Attila? Sorry if I offended you with my maudlin feelings. but Do you REALLY believe bonsai is going to "break out of its niche market"? REALLY? Something that takes time to care for, requires regular maintenance and can't just be parked in the garage?

What exactly should people contemplate when looking at a bonsai? What's it's significance other than a conceptualization of nature? Nature is intrinsic in a tree. There's really no other way around it. Bonsai is not sculpture. Never will be. It is limited by its biology to be handled as such. It cannot be left inside untended for long No matter how many dollar signs anyone sees in it, nor how much self-important artistic hyperventilation it inspires, or awesome car dealership displays it banks.

It is funny how misleading the written word can be, as far as its emotional content.

I actually liked your post very much, and no, my post was not intended to be vitriolic at all. There is nothing further from my feelings than being vitriolic or offended. I am sure you understand the difference between hatred and loving passion. I had the most peaceful and friendly mindset, when I wrote those words. I am always amazed how can somebody miss the intent of the written word, by such a wide margin. I speculate that the reader is ejecting his own feelings into the text, and then interpreting it.

The reason why we disagree to this extent, is because we are comparing apples with figs, as Al put it. If you are exhibiting bonsai AS BONSAI (see traditional context) then I agree with everything you say. There is not one word you've said, that I could have said better.

So far so good?

The point we disagree, is that you believe that bonsai can only be exhibited in its traditional context. NO EXCEPTIONS ALLOWED.

My believe is the opposite: there is no law against exhibiting bonsai in a totally different context. Not only there is no law against it, but there is no moral, ethical, or aesthetic principle against it either. In other words, people has the right to enjoy a miniature tree in any context imaginable. How else shall I put it?

There is no wrong way of enjoying a work of art.

Why on earth would you have a problem with the hundreds, or thousands, who enjoy such an exhibit? Let them love it, admire it, the way they want, would you? You need to embrace the first rule of looking at contemporary arts: there is no such thing as one right context. It is total freedom from any prescriptive way of interpreting it. Once your work is done, you have no control over other peoples way of looking at it. You do your thing, the gallery owners and curators do theirs. Let the public be the judge.

(and I say this in the most friendly spirit, no hatred please )

 

[cbobgo]

Let them love it, admire it, the way they want,

And then let them buy the trees from us and pay us to take care of and style the trees and sell them more trees.

- bob

 

[Attila Soos]

And then let them buy the trees from us and pay us to take care of and style the trees and sell them more trees.

- bob

You are damn right, that's what we should worry about.
A great tokonoma is not cheap. I need to sell a few high priced trees to the "uneducated" rich, before I can build mine.

 

[Walter Pall]

Why should bonsai NOT be a living sculpture? Who defines what that is?
Her is one definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_sculpture
bonsai are clearly sculptures.
I have a student who has studied arts and his major was sculpting. He is professor of art now. He just shakes his head when someone claims that bonsai are not sculptures.

 

[Attila Soos]

Had your remarks been placed in a thread started by you asking if this may be a paradigm shift in the way "STAND ALONE" bonsai are displayed, then we could continue to carry on intelligent conversation about how we may start to display stand alone bonsai better in the west.

Thanks,
Al

We can always carry an intelligent discussion, no matter what the original thread started with. As you know, sometime a thread takes on a life of its own, and grows organically taking unexpected directions.

 

[Attila Soos]

Why should bonsai NOT be a living sculpture? Who defines what that is?
Her is one definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_sculpture
bonsai are clearly sculptures.
I have a student who has studied arts and his major was sculpting. He is professor of art now. He just shakes his head when someone claims that bonsai are not sculptures.

I agree with Walter, bonsai lends itself very easily to living sculpture, although it is not the traditional way.

I can already see the reaction of some bonsaist, who firmly believe that bonsai is somewhat "superior" to all the other art-forms, such as tree shaping or topiary. To me, one art form being "superior" to others, is very similar to the idea that one race is superior to others. I am not accusing anybody of racism, but pointing out that the logic is very similar. A misguided sense of entitlement.

 

[cbobgo]

from wiktionary

sculpture (plural sculptures)

1. The art of shaping figures or designs in the round or in relief, professionally performed by a sculptor
2. A work of art created by sculpting; such works as a group



A bonsai is a figure of a tree, it just happens to be sculpted out of a tree, as opposed to being sculpted from clay, or bronze or whatever else.

When I've got my dremel out, carving shapes out of hunks of wood, and am bending stuff with wire, I sure feel like a sculptor.

- bob

 

[Yamadori]

One can not look at Dan Robinson's tree work and say bonsai is not sculpture.

 

[donkey]

I think walters bmw display is a good basis for westernization of bonsai display i know it does not fit in with the tokonama display setting but it is a start. I do not know much about tokonama or any of the japanese culture that goes with the art but from what i have learned from this thread here is my guess at a western style tokanama type display

Tree in a glass cabinet (art is a commodity do not touch)
artistic lighting
picture in a frame (more western than use of scroll)
accent miniturised representation of consumer goods tv hifi sports car etc
i don't think subtle imagery would be correct for a westernised display our art is usually more precise in it's meaning

maybe not but that is what i see when trying to visualise a wsternised aproach.

 

[rockm]

"The point we disagree, is that you believe that bonsai can only be exhibited in its traditional context. NO EXCEPTIONS ALLOWED.

My believe is the opposite: there is no law against exhibiting bonsai in a totally different context. Not only there is no law against it, but there is no moral, ethical, or aesthetic principle against it either. In other words, people has the right to enjoy a miniature tree in any context imaginable. How else shall I put it?

There is no wrong way of enjoying a work of art.

Why on earth would you have a problem with the hundreds, or thousands, who enjoy such an exhibit? Let them love it, admire it, the way they want, would you? You need to embrace the first rule of looking at contemporary arts: there is no such thing as one right context. It is total freedom from any prescriptive way of interpreting it. Once your work is done, you have no control over other peoples way of looking at it. You do your thing, the gallery owners and curators do theirs. Let the public be the judge. It is an unforunate (or forunate, depending on how you look at it) barrier to wider acceptance in the art world.

(and I say this in the most friendly spirit, no hatred please )"

Talk about injecting stuff that isn't there... I am completely capable of understanding contemporary art. I am completely in agreement with you about embracing new ways to see bonsai. I understand that there is no "right" context. I understand that total freedom for interpretation rules contemporary art.

You seem to be very selective in the interpretations YOU deem acceptable--picking and choosing only those which are in close approximation to your own--which is kind of the antithesis of contemporary art...??? If there is no "wrong" way, why do you say I "need to embrace" your way of looking at things. I have my own...???

I said (and this is certainly valid in a discussion of "contemporary art") that Walter's display turned bonsai into commodity--subverting it into a marketing tool. If you'd not jumped to the conclusion that I was simply being rigid and archaic, you might see that my comments might be interpreted differently.

Subversion is an extremely common theme (some might say cliche) in contemporary art. Taking an old, even ancient, artform and twisting it to new purposes contradicting its past has a long tradition in modern art. Using ancient bonsai to accent (or sell) sleek autos turns bonsai on end, using age to sell youth...

I am certainly not tied to tokoname display. I simply prefer to be a bit more straightforward in how bonsai display might be used in the west, prefering a fusion of new and old, not a complete rejection of the old. As I've said before most "original" bonsai displays in the West always seem a bit soulless and empty to me (this one definitely included). They tend to be a bit too self-important and clang a little too loudly for me--and that's just my preference and my intepretation.

And no, bonsai is not simply "living sculpture" IMO. That's a simplistic explanation. It is more and it is less than that. Sculpture is three dimensional, bonsai is four (time is the fourth) Without that fourth dimension, bonsai would only be sculpture. Sculpture is not bound to a set of mostly rigid parameters--bonsai is (roots have to be in dirt, trees have foliage and bark) Sculpture is capable of a far greater range of expression and is bound only by the artist's imagination. A bonsai mostly has to retain the above--it is forever a tree--even if you turn it upside down, put a red gel light on it and put it on a lucite stand...Since sculpture is the closest Western correllary to bonsai, it is often said the two are equivalent and that's unfortunate. They're not. Bonsai becomes sculpture only after it is dead.

Bonsai depends not only on artistic capability, but on horticultural talent. The down and dirty truth is that you cannot have bonsai without both, which is why I think the established Western artistic community hasn't taken it up more eagerly--nor have art buyers. Most just don't have the hort. skills and don't want to learn them.

Bonsai is fleeting--growth and seasons change it. Sculpture is permanent and mostly unchanging. While this seems to be a fine point, it is really the whole ball game. Bonsai cannot be handled like sculpture. It requires a different thought process than sculpture. -- It's akin to a boat captain's thinking and a submariners'. Submariners have to think in three dimensions--attack can come from above or below, while a ship only has to worry about two--the horizon and above. Bonsaiists have to think what their actions will produce in ten year's time, while a sculptor thinks in terms of a final cut.

Sculpture requires no care, once completed, a stone is done. A tree is not. Sculpture has one artist, bonsai has many, including nature herself.

 

[Bill S]

Rock,I think you need a good shot of Espresso in your coffee.
Good points. Only argument if you call it that, is the time thing, there I believe is the different challange to our artform that others do not have to deal with. It seems to be the ole, a finished bonsai is a dead one.