Trunk pruning Chinese elm

[A Random User]

Haha, yea I stated that I'm a beginner, but I've done my research. i don't pretend to know things from experience, I usually make that clear, as I have in this thread. But thank you for your misplaced condescension. I don't have any desire to work with tropicals, I don't live in florida, it's -1 Degrees outside, so I haven't researched tropicals at all. And what you're talking about doesn't matter anyway, I'm already aware of the method you are talking about and I agree with you that that's the best way of developing taper and ramification. But if you have numerous thick branches pointing in the completely wrong direction there is absolutely no point in continuing to grow them unless you want to keep them like that, and have a really terrible looking tree. Did you actually look at the picture of the tree? If you can't wire those branches in the right direction, cut them off and then apply your method to growing new branches.

Of course what I was saying doesn't matter... why would it, when one can be not an authority, and an
Internet authority at the same time ??? I bet you have really awesome virtual trees !!!

 

[Cypress]

Of course what I was saying doesn't matter... why would it, when one can be not an authority, and an
Internet authority at the same time ??? I bet you have really awesome virtual trees !!!

I mean it doesn't matter in fixing those awkward branches, but of course it does later on. I told you I agree with you, what more do you want out of me? Honestly answer this: Which is a better way of fixing those awkward branches, wiring them into place/removing and regrowing or just letting them grow?

Wow, I don't understand why bonsai has to be such a bloodsport with some people. It's kind of despicable of people who have years in bonsai under their belt, looking down their noses at newcomers like it's some kind of exclusive club. I offered my opinion take it or leave it man, that's what forums are for.

 

[A Random User]

I mean it doesn't matter in fixing those awkward branches, but of course it does later on. I told you I agree with you, what more do you want out of me? Honestly answer this: Which is a better way of fixing those awkward branches, wiring them into place/removing and regrowing or just letting them grow?

Wow, I don't understand why bonsai has to be such a bloodsport with some people. It's kind of despicable of people who have years in bonsai under their belt, looking down their noses at newcomers like it's some kind of exclusive club. I offered my opinion take it or leave it man, that's what forums are for.

Ok...
So, you are not an authority, but you are because you read
Some internet info.
You say it doesn't matter if the awkward branches are removed, but say it does...
You say that my post regarding tropicals is irrelevant, and when I show that it is
You agree with me...

For the record... there is no bloodsport here... no looking down one's nose at a
Newbie. There is only confusion over why you are arguing, and what you are
Actually arguing about...

As far as your question over whether or not it is better to cut or wire... this for
Me would obviously depend on each and every situation. Having said.this, I
Will almost always wire... because if one knows how to wire, you can resolve
Most issues.

 

[Cypress]

Ok...
So, you are not an authority, but you are because you read
Some internet info.
You say it doesn't matter if the awkward branches are removed, but say it does...
You say that my post regarding tropicals is irrelevant, and when I show that it is
You agree with me...

For the record... there is no bloodsport here... no looking down one's nose at a
Newbie. There is only confusion over why you are arguing, and what you are
Actually arguing about...

As far as your question over whether or not it is better to cut or wire... this for
Me would obviously depend on each and every situation. Having said.this, I
Will almost always wire... because if one knows how to wire, you can resolve
Most issues.

Ok, I don't think you really read my posts very accurately and I can't seem to make that clear to you. So nevermind. But where exactly did I claim I was an authority? Would love to see the post. Just try not to bite someones head off when they offer their personal opinion, that's all I'm asking.

 

[Jaberwky17]

If you old ladies are done kvetching....?

I appreciate the fact that some responders are trying to see bigger picture, but iant hit it on the head. We got exactly one response into that thread before the topic took off in another direction and it took 3 pages before someone bothered to address the initial question. For the record, I'm not interested in posting a picture of the whole tree right now because it has nothing to do with my question.

This isn't a show tree nor does it hold any particular value other than to practice on. So I'm probably not going to chop it any time soon. Air layering sounds like fun eventually. Yes I realize the branching is nasty, and I might just have to book a trip to Indonesia or Korea or wherever this thing was grown and smack somebody. But for now I will have a fun green growy thing in my office and use it to make sure my elm with decent branching stays that way.

For those who can act like adults, thanks for your response. For those who can't, I will take advantage of the knowledge you DO have some other time. Because I do think your experience is worth something. Peace and elm leaves.

 

[M. Frary]

Well said.

 

[edprocoat]

As for the original question the tree being a Chinese Elm it will respond like most tropical varieties, especially like the Ficus. They heal over quick, grow quick and backbud well. If you do chop the knob off cut it in a depression, lower than the trunk so it heals flat, it looks like a branch or more was removed and healed into that bump. You should be able to notch those downward branches on the top side next to the trunk and wire them up.

We all get a little testy here at times, I have inadvertently caused arguments here by giving a short answer that was taken wrong, and have been guilty of taking things the wrong way too. I have to say that if you want good advice check the work of those who are giving the advice, Sawgrass, or Stacy Allen Muse has proven by his trees that he knows what he is doing. I am not saying that others be ignored, new ideas that work eventually become the golden rule. Its only fairly recently we have come from grow a tree into a Bonsai to cut a tree down into a Bonsai. If you want to take the chance on your material to try something unproven then you have nobody to blame but yourself if it does not work out, on the other hand if you want certain results that have been proven, seek advice from people who can back their ideas with finished trees. I see tons of stuff online where people literally kill a tree in a 8-10 minute video and show what they have accomplished claiming they just created a Bonsai, funny how you never see a follow-up video a year later showing how well it has progressed in that year....

ed

 

[A Random User]

If you old ladies are done kvetching....?

I appreciate the fact that some responders are trying to see bigger picture, but iant hit it on the head. We got exactly one response into that thread before the topic took off in another direction and it took 3 pages before someone bothered to address the initial question. For the record, I'm not interested in posting a picture of the whole tree right now because it has nothing to do with my question.

This isn't a show tree nor does it hold any particular value other than to practice on. So I'm probably not going to chop it any time soon. Air layering sounds like fun eventually. Yes I realize the branching is nasty, and I might just have to book a trip to Indonesia or Korea or wherever this thing was grown and smack somebody. But for now I will have a fun green growy thing in my office and use it to make sure my elm with decent branching stays that way.

For those who can act like adults, thanks for your response. For those who can't, I will take advantage of the knowledge you DO have some other time. Because I do think your experience is worth something. Peace and elm leaves.

I actually answered your question on page 1 and then again on 2.
As stated... if you let it grow out, it will resolve itself.
Oh... there I go again being an old lady.

 

[lordy]

Help me to understand, please

That they that easily bud back the trick is to let them grow, then reduce, let them
grow then reduce.

Stacey, I am confused. Maybe we're mincing words here. What is the difference, in your eyes, between "let them grow, then reduce" and "cut it back" ? Do you not think that when it gets cut back that it will regrow? If it gets cut back, it buds back and grows more. Maybe you can help me understand how you see these as different.

Another one that has me scratching my head. The OP questioned how to handle the large scar. I think one of your replies said " You might end up with some bulges, that will have to be addressed, where the new growth that ends up covering the cut sticks out. I would at this stage just let it heal completely over, then cut the bumps flat and let them heal over again. "
Let a monster scar take years to grow callus, then grind it flat and regrow the callus? Seems to me that would be a waste of time. In my collection, pruning scars are made concave if they need to be flat when they heal. If it was mine, I'd be taking care of that scar now.

 

[A Random User]

Stacey, I am confused. Maybe we're mincing words here. What is the difference, in your eyes, between "let them grow, then reduce" and "cut it back" ? Do you not think that when it gets cut back that it will regrow? If it gets cut back, it buds back and grows more. Maybe you can help me understand how you see these as different.

Another one that has me scratching my head. The OP questioned how to handle the large scar. I think one of your replies said " You might end up with some bulges, that will have to be addressed, where the new growth that ends up covering the cut sticks out. I would at this stage just let it heal completely over, then cut the bumps flat and let them heal over again. "
Let a monster scar take years to grow callus, then grind it flat and regrow the callus? Seems to me that would be a waste of time. In my collection, pruning scars are made concave if they need to be flat when they heal. If it was mine, I'd be taking care of that scar now.

Let me first say that If you are going to use my name It is actually spelled Stacy.

As far as my discussion regarding letting plants grow, then reducing them, there is no mincing
of words on my behalf... If you read the thread that was link too, it is pretty thorough, and pretty
self explanatory.

As far as the scar. I stated what I did for a reason... First if one examines the pic, you will see that
it is already begun to heal over. Further cutting at it now might result in two undesired results.
The first being that the live tissue that is currently healing the scar could actually die back further,
creating an even larger wound to try and heal over. The second, being that the live tissue could
actually pile up, creating an even larger bump than if just left alone. Has nothing to do with concave
cutters, or pruning scars concave... But more to do with the understanding of what is the best remedy
for resolving this problem. If one is creating a brand new scar by removing a branch, then yes, concaving
the scar so that when it heals it is flat, is the best way of resolving that issue... However, for some plants
this you would not want to do.

Lastly, I don't think the OP needs to worry too much here about taking years for this scar to
heal over. It will take a lot longer than this to turn this tree into a decent Bonsai.
No offence OP... Just reality.

 

[lordy]

As far as my discussion regarding letting plants grow, then reducing them, there is no mincing of words on my behalf... If you read the thread that was link too, it is pretty thorough, and pretty self explanatory.

I understand your point about leaving the tree alone, and in different cases agree, depending on the circumstances. I think chronology of cause and effect comes into play here, and blanket statements cannot apply to all situations.

As far as the scar. I stated what I did for a reason... First if one examines the pic, you will see that it is already begun to heal over. Further cutting at it now might result in two undesired results.
The first being that the live tissue that is currently healing the scar could actually die back further, creating an even larger wound to try and heal over. The second, being that the live tissue could actually pile up, creating an even larger bump than if just left alone. Has nothing to do with concave cutters, or pruning scars concave... But more to do with the understanding of what is the best remedy for resolving this problem. If one is creating a brand new scar by removing a branch, then yes, concaving the scar so that when it heals it is flat, is the best way of resolving that issue... However, for some plants this you would not want to do.

Lastly, I don't think the OP needs to worry too much here about taking years for this scar to
heal over. It will take a lot longer than this to turn this tree into a decent Bonsai.
No offence OP... Just reality.

The problem the OP has with his tree was never addressed by these comments. Just saying something might or could happen is dodging the issue. It could become a world-class tree if in the hands of the right artist. But probably not. The large knob needs to be reduced and letting the scar heal wont fix it. This knob needs to be carved and reduced. It may never callus over as big as it will need to be. But worrying about the regrowth piling up, or dieback further? To follow in your footsteps, sure it may be possible, but which method is more likely to resolve the OP's issue? I submit that simply allowing the tree to put on foliage and leave it alone will do exactly nothing to reduce that knob. It may eventually help it callus over the original scar after another 5 years in the ground. Maybe. But then all you end up with is a swolen knob with a callus over it. Not my idea of a good solution to the OP's question.

 

[nathanbs]

Not sure if anyone addressed this or not but your tree does not look vigorous. Do you grow it indoors? Did you just recently defoliate it? As is you wont get much branch regrowth or the healing over a knob that you reduce until that thing gets stronger and starts growing, and I mean really growing

 

[A Random User]

I understand your point about leaving the tree alone, and in different cases agree, depending on the circumstances. I think chronology of cause and effect comes into play here, and blanket statements cannot apply to all situations.

The problem the OP has with his tree was never addressed by these comments. Just saying something might or could happen is dodging the issue. It could become a world-class tree if in the hands of the right artist. But probably not. The large knob needs to be reduced and letting the scar heal wont fix it. This knob needs to be carved and reduced. It may never callus over as big as it will need to be. But worrying about the regrowth piling up, or dieback further? To follow in your footsteps, sure it may be possible, but which method is more likely to resolve the OP's issue? I submit that simply allowing the tree to put on foliage and leave it alone will do exactly nothing to reduce that knob. It may eventually help it callus over the original scar after another 5 years in the ground. Maybe. But then all you end up with is a swolen knob with a callus over it. Not my idea of a good solution to the OP's question.

Can you please show me what "large knob" you are actually talking about?
Because, seeing that we actually collect and deal with a lot of collected material
down here which has had to have extremely large portions of the tree removed,
I am talking 4 inch plus branches...
I am just not seeing why you seem to be getting your panties in a wad over.

This tree's trunk can't even be much more than an inch wide at where the scar is...
which would make the scar not much bigger than a persons fingernail...
Not even a pimple on the ass of most trees.

You may disagree with what I have said to do and that's fine... My advice was
given on sound principals, that actually happen, not what if's, as you have suggested.
Yes, there very well could be dieback... it happens all the time, and yes scarring the
scar tissue could very well lead to further build up.

You may think if you want too, that this little "Mallsai" (as Vance would
put) it is going to be some world class tree if you want, "if in the hands of
the right artist"... which I guess it could, in about 50 plus years or more from now,
But regardless, why then would it matter how long it takes to heal over this scar ?

I think, where the issue lies, is that I have somewhere said something that you have taken
offense too, and you have now made it your "path of destiny" to try and follow me around and
try and point out all the flaws or problems that you see wrong with what I say. As if to try
and make me look bad... There is only one problem here and that is you might notice, that
out of the 2 of us... I am the only one here that has actually posted any trees that are kinda
worth a crap. So... who would you believe ???
I like having these discussions though...

 

[A Random User]

Not sure if anyone addressed this or not but your tree does not look vigorous. Do you grow it indoors? Did you just recently defoliate it? As is you wont get much branch regrowth or the healing over a knob that you reduce until that thing gets stronger and starts growing, and I mean really growing

I agree...

 

[Poink88]

One more thing...the biggest problem is the health of the tree. It need to go outside, else it may die soon.

Not sure if anyone addressed this or not but your tree does not look vigorous. Do you grow it indoors? Did you just recently defoliate it? As is you wont get much branch regrowth or the healing over a knob that you reduce until that thing gets stronger and starts growing, and I mean really growing

I agree and exactly what I meant on my post above. (yes I didn't mean right away during sub-freezing temps)

 

[lordy]

Can you please show me what "large knob" you are actually talking about?
This tree's trunk can't even be much more than an inch wide at where the scar is...
which would make the scar not much bigger than a persons fingernail...
Not even a pimple on the ass of most trees.

Perhaps you missed the photo of said knob in the very first post of this thread? The knob is that big spherical object about the size of a tennis ball directly in the center of the photo. You must be seriously challenged with estimating size of branches and trunks. In another thread on your bent pine, you said that was 1-1/2" then backpeddaled when someone called you on it. I dont really care one way or the other, just that you seem to distort the facts to match your doublespeak of the moment.

I think, where the issue lies, is that I have somewhere said something that you have taken
offense too, and you have now made it your "path of destiny" to try and follow me around and
try and point out all the flaws or problems that you see wrong with what I say. As if to try
and make me look bad... There is only one problem here and that is you might notice, that
out of the 2 of us... I am the only one here that has actually posted any trees that are kinda
worth a crap. So... who would you believe ???
I like having these discussions though...

I dont follow you at all. You leave signs all over the place that shout "Look at ME!" I dont need to make you look bad. You're doing a fine job of that yourself. I'm not the one espousing various ways to do certain things to different trees without solid proof of the claims. Your ability to explain what you claim leaves a bit to be desired. I too like these discussions. Unfortunately I'm in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. I think it's sad that when someone asks you to explain yourself, you dont, and then get very defensive. Why is that?

 

[A Random User]

Perhaps you missed the photo of said knob in the very first post of this thread? The knob is that big spherical object about the size of a tennis ball directly in the center of the photo. You must be seriously challenged with estimating size of branches and trunks. In another thread on your bent pine, you said that was 1-1/2" then backpeddaled when someone called you on it. I dont really care one way or the other, just that you seem to distort the facts to match your doublespeak of the moment.


I dont follow you at all. You leave signs all over the place that shout "Look at ME!" I dont need to make you look bad. You're doing a fine job of that yourself. I'm not the one espousing various ways to do certain things to different trees without solid proof of the claims. Your ability to explain what you claim leaves a bit to be desired. I too like these discussions. Unfortunately I'm in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. I think it's sad that when someone asks you to explain yourself, you dont, and then get very defensive. Why is that?

This is funny...
I will just let those here at B-Nut decide for themselves.
My trees and my work speak for themself.
Think I am full of crap, then fine... but still doesn't change the
Fact no one here has seen any your trees ???
40 years is a long time to be doing something , with nothing to show.

By the way... if one looks at the picture, it is a close up.
Which might explain your tennis ball beliefs.
Have a nice day !!!
Wonder what other BS I can post on what I know little about ???

 

[lordy]

By the way... if one looks at the picture, it is a close up.
Which might explain your tennis ball beliefs.

I was simply noticing the size of secondary and tertiary branching, along with the leaves. Closeup or not, that is no small swelling and letting it simply grow will do nothing more than exacerbate the problem. In case you didnt notice, there are at least 3 and up to 5 large primary branches growing right at the knob. Ever wonder why that knob is there? Jaberwky, go ahead and let it grow another 3 to 5 years. Then you should be able to play baseball with it instead of tennis. But at least it will have nice callus.

Over and out.

 

[Smoke]

Wonder what other BS I can post on what I know little about ???

politics??????

 

[A Random User]

politics??????

Now that's Funny !!!
I could say the same for you as well !!!