Trunk pruning Chinese elm

[Jaberwky17]

One of my elms has a large unsightly knob at the lower apex where it was chopped some years ago. I'd like to reduce that knob or knuckle. My understanding is that the elms ability to heal chops or large wounds isn't the best. Should I plan to cut off the entire amount I want and then manage healing, or try to remove a little at a time over a longer number of years?

 

[Poink88]

Care to post a whole tree shot?

I think your tree have bigger problems than the knob...i.e. straight branches. (sorry)

 

[Cypress]

Care to post a whole tree shot?

I think your tree have bigger problems than the knob...i.e. straight branches. (sorry)

It seems like Dario could be right. Take whatever I say with a grain of salt, since I'm a beginner and I'm not even really at this stage of development with my own trees. But it looks like your branches actually head downwards right from the trunk. I feel like I see so many *potentially* really great deciduous bonsai that people have styled the branch structure like it is a conifer. With branches moving straight out from the trunk or even downwards. It's like they haven't been outside and looked at an actual deciduous tree since they began bonsai. Deciduous branches need to grow upwards, then outwards for the tree to look remotely natural. The only branch on a deciduous bonsai that could/should be growing close to straight out is the very lowest branch on your trunk. And I feel like I see this in trees of some people who have been doing bonsai for quite a while. It breaks my heart a little bit when I see a really great trunk that looks absurd because of how the branch structure has been developed. Just go outside and look at literally any deciduous trees growing in your neighborhood.

 

[Cypress]

Like so:

 

[Jaberwky17]

Ha ha, I didn't think to include that this is a horrid little mass produced tree that I got for cheap. Branching is already set, so I'm considering it practice. It lives in my office and gives me something fun to look at during the day. I'm using it to learn how to control branching through selective pruning rather than wiring, and also general elm care. I have a nicer one at home.

I may decide to chop this one low after a few years and grow a new branch structure and apex.

 

[Poink88]

In that case, you can also use it to learn sacrificial and drastic pruning by cutting back the straight branches down to 2 secondary branches. The tree may look bad at first but it will be much better in the future.

 

[Cypress]

Ha ha, I didn't think to include that this is a horrid little mass produced tree that I got for cheap. Branching is already set, so I'm considering it practice. It lives in my office and gives me something fun to look at during the day. I'm using it to learn how to control branching through selective pruning rather than wiring, and also general elm care. I have a nicer one at home.

I may decide to chop this one low after a few years and grow a new branch structure and apex.

Haha, right on. Consider my rant not necessarily aimed at you, just had to get that out. I feel like you may as well prune off all the bad branches and regrow them at some point. Elms grow relatively quickly right?

 

[Jaberwky17]

True. If I cut it down the knuckle issue is taken care of by default.

 

[A Random User]

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?13695-Working-Tropicals

Thought this my be worth the read...

 

[Poink88]

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?13695-Working-Tropicals

Thought this my be worth the read...

Stacey, I hope we can discuss this in a civil way.

My belief is that the main branches are flawed. No matter how hard you fix it, it will stay flawed. You can mask it but why? Cutting these back, in my mind, is the best way. It may take some time but in the end, it will be worth it.

If you disagree, please tell us/me why and how you propose to fix it.

Thank you.

 

[Cypress]

Yea, the only way you'll fix those branches is by removing them. No use in putting lipstick on a cow. Plus it's an elm, not a tropical?

 

[iant]

You guys realize that no one attempted to answer his question? He asked if you'd cut the knob off all at once or if you'd do it in stages. So many times on this forum when someone asks a question it's like the detectives are off to the races. We get comments about the soil not being right or questions if it's really the type of tree the person thinks it is... etc.
My suggestion is if you're going to rag on the tree or soil first give your answer to the question (or say you don't know) and THEN rag on the tree.
So my answer to the question would be that I don't know. My hunch is you could just remove it all at once. I think you'd be better off to hop the tree off under the knob as you have a couple too many branches at that spot anyway and it's going to be hard to get that to look nice. I'd cut under it and train a new leader up.
Ian

 

[Poink88]

You guys realize that no one attempted to answer his question? He asked if you'd cut the knob off all at once or if you'd do it in stages. So many times on this forum when someone asks a question it's like the detectives are off to the races. We get comments about the soil not being right or questions if it's really the type of tree the person thinks it is... etc.
My suggestion is if you're going to rag on the tree or soil first give your answer to the question (or say you don't know) and THEN rag on the tree.
So my answer to the question would be that I don't know. My hunch is you could just remove it all at once. I think you'd be better off to hop the tree off under the knob as you have a couple too many branches at that spot anyway and it's going to be hard to get that to look nice. I'd cut under it and train a new leader up.
Ian

As I said, I noticed a bigger problem and believe it need to be addressed first. Why fix a problem you might remove anyway? Thus the request for a whole tree pic.
Is that wrong? Maybe.
Is that right? Maybe.

 

[Poink88]

One more thing...the biggest problem is the health of the tree. It need to go outside, else it may die soon.

 

[Cypress]

You guys realize that no one attempted to answer his question? He asked if you'd cut the knob off all at once or if you'd do it in stages. So many times on this forum when someone asks a question it's like the detectives are off to the races. We get comments about the soil not being right or questions if it's really the type of tree the person thinks it is... etc.
My suggestion is if you're going to rag on the tree or soil first give your answer to the question (or say you don't know) and THEN rag on the tree.
So my answer to the question would be that I don't know. My hunch is you could just remove it all at once. I think you'd be better off to hop the tree off under the knob as you have a couple too many branches at that spot anyway and it's going to be hard to get that to look nice. I'd cut under it and train a new leader up.
Ian

Ok, but I think i'll just post whatever I post. I'm not ragging on anything, I agreed with Dario and stated my opinion and offered some constructive criticism on what I saw as a more important issue with the tree. Yer raggin on us.

 

[mat]

If it was mine and removing the lump was the primary goal, I'd do it in one shot. Without seeing a better view of the tree though, it's hard to say if that would be part of a bigger chop/pruning job.

One more thing...the biggest problem is the health of the tree. It need to go outside, else it may die soon.

You might not want to put the Elm outside right now. Long term, yes it should not stay inside, but it may be a little too cold today for it's first trip outdoors in a while.

How was that, Iant?

 

[A Random User]

Yea, the only way you'll fix those branches is by removing them. No use in putting lipstick on a cow. Plus it's an elm, not a tropical?

I would agree with your earlier statement that you don't know much about Bonsai
or elms for that matter... seeing that if you did... you would know that the very same principals
and procedures that that I suggested for the tropicals would also apply for a Chinese elm.

That they that easily bud back the trick is to let them grow, then reduce, let them
grow then reduce.

This is especially true with elms, for not only does it help establish taper within the
trees branches, but also helps to increase branch ramification.

 

[A Random User]

Stacey, I hope we can discuss this in a civil way.

My belief is that the main branches are flawed. No matter how hard you fix it, it will stay flawed. You can mask it but why? Cutting these back, in my mind, is the best way. It may take some time but in the end, it will be worth it.

If you disagree, please tell us/me why and how you propose to fix it.

Thank you.

You asked if the OP could post some pics of the whole tree.
He has not actually done so as of yet... I think if he would like correct advice
given as to where he could possibly go with his tree, he would be wise to do so...
So that we could make a sincere judgment based on what is actually there.
Not just random suggestions of cutting off everything and starting over.
Perhaps, his tree does need as you have suggested, to start over... perhaps not.
But here we are again just assuming every problem will be solved with cutting...

From personal experience... I managed to styled one of these crapsi, potensai, mallsi,
what ever you would like to call it massed produced trees, with similar branch problems
into what is turning out to be a pretty cool weeping tree, that you might recall.
Speaking of which I seem to recall that most folks here told me I should cut it as well...

 

[A Random User]

One of my elms has a large unsightly knob at the lower apex where it was chopped some years ago. I'd like to reduce that knob or knuckle. My understanding is that the elms ability to heal chops or large wounds isn't the best. Should I plan to cut off the entire amount I want and then manage healing, or try to remove a little at a time over a longer number of years?

View attachment 46613

The wound that you are referring too... has already begun to heal over.
If you do end up keeping this part of the tree, then I would for now just
let it be, and let it completely heal over.

Again, the fastest way to achieve this result would be by letting what is
growing around it be allowed to grow unrestrained. This means no cutting...
The faster the branches grow the more wood they are going to put on to
help cover over the wound.

Now having said this... You might end up with some bulges, that will have to be
addressed, where the new growth that ends up covering the cut sticks out.
I would at this stage just let it heal completely over, then cut the bumps flat
and let them heal over again.

 

[Cypress]

I would agree with your earlier statement that you don't know much about Bonsai
or elms for that matter... seeing that if you did... you would know that the very same principals
and procedures that that I suggested for the tropicals would also apply for a Chinese elm.

That they that easily bud back the trick is to let them grow, then reduce, let them
grow then reduce.

This is especially true with elms, for not only does it help establish taper within the
trees branches, but also helps to increase branch ramification.

Haha, yea I stated that I'm a beginner, but I've done my research. i don't pretend to know things from experience, I usually make that clear, as I have in this thread. But thank you for your misplaced condescension. I don't have any desire to work with tropicals, I don't live in florida, it's -1 Degrees outside, so I haven't researched tropicals at all. And what you're talking about doesn't matter anyway, I'm already aware of the method you are talking about and I agree with you that that's the best way of developing taper and ramification. But if you have numerous thick branches pointing in the completely wrong direction there is absolutely no point in continuing to grow them unless you want to keep them like that, and have a really terrible looking tree. Did you actually look at the picture of the tree? If you can't wire those branches in the right direction, cut them off and then apply your method to growing new branches.