To Bun Jin or not to Bun Jin
- Thread starter StarTurtle
- Start date
StarTurtle,
Only you can decide that. The tree does have good Literati characteristics, but it also does not look like it's been in training for very long. It has good characteristics for the more traditional styles as well.
Personally, I would wait a couple more years to do anything "drastic". Build ramification, shorten needles, all that good stuff.
Only you can decide that. The tree does have good Literati characteristics, but it also does not look like it's been in training for very long. It has good characteristics for the more traditional styles as well.
Personally, I would wait a couple more years to do anything "drastic". Build ramification, shorten needles, all that good stuff.
PaulH
Omono
I second Adair's thoughts.
Vin
Imperial Masterpiece
Would it be more appropriate to work on removing the bar branches before moving too much further with the tree? I would not want to build ramification on unwanted branches.
october
Masterpiece
Agreed on this. This tree is more of a traditional informal upright. A tree is either a bunjin or it isn't. To me, the bunjin style is very special. It is a thin trunk tree, yet still old and tells a story.
Rob
My thoughts are Bunjin are a lot like windswept- it takes a special tree to pull it off. Anything other than a special tree will always look man made or have an appearance of a tree tyring to be a certain style when it really isn't.
That's not to say what you have here is junk, what you have here is a nice little tree that had potential to be good, it just needs a direction, management and love.
So, when I looked at the 1st picture you posted I instantly thought "Stand the tree up" and tilt it to the viewer. I was happy to see that you did just that in later pictures. That is the future of the tree IMO and where I would take it if it were mine. I wouldn't lean it towords the viewer any more because the side profile shows what I would use as the apex already leaning to the viewer perfectly.
I am the worst when it comes to virtuals, so I use MS Paint and stink it up! Crude drawings and text boxes are about the extent of what I can do. Ugly but should get the point across, or so I hope.
Looking at my nice drawing, I would bend the main part of the trunk to the right to get it over the base for balance. I would then take the top branch and bend it to compact it and use it as the apex. Needle prune (cut leaving 1/4" of the needle) and wire every but up. Jin the deadwood sticking up. The idea is jin coming out of the apex. Looks cool.
The next whorl of branches down from the top I see there are 2 coming from the back side. wire one to the left (the smaller one) and the larger one I would wire the first shoot (looks like an inch from the trunk) so that it comes to the front of the tree. The rest of it I would bend left and then bring it right so that it creates a back pad and then extends right for a pad.
The next set of branches (closest to the soil line) I would cut the one closest to the viewer back to the first shoot. You can see my red line. The one in the back that you also have wire on I would cut that leaving a 1" stub. From the pictures it seems as the foliage is too far out and it's straight, bare and boring. There is the little brance just above it thought. Bend that to the left so the first grouping of buds creates a pad then bend the remaining back to the right so you create another back pad and foliage on the right.
If it were my tree I would do that now. Wire every bud up and balance the needles to the weakest branch. Feed well.
Spring work I woud reduce that rootball by atleast 50% and get it into pumice, lava and Akadama only. No native soil mix. Feed it well with poo balls, miracle grow type liquid fert and watch the buds pop. Keep on the needles and getting extension growth where you need it.
This fall you could really compact this guy and set branches. Once you start on that you will see the future is allright with this one.
Disclaimer: I am just getting back into working on trees so I am rusty and could be off on this tree
Hope it helps. Jason
That's not to say what you have here is junk, what you have here is a nice little tree that had potential to be good, it just needs a direction, management and love.
So, when I looked at the 1st picture you posted I instantly thought "Stand the tree up" and tilt it to the viewer. I was happy to see that you did just that in later pictures. That is the future of the tree IMO and where I would take it if it were mine. I wouldn't lean it towords the viewer any more because the side profile shows what I would use as the apex already leaning to the viewer perfectly.
I am the worst when it comes to virtuals, so I use MS Paint and stink it up! Crude drawings and text boxes are about the extent of what I can do. Ugly but should get the point across, or so I hope.
Looking at my nice drawing, I would bend the main part of the trunk to the right to get it over the base for balance. I would then take the top branch and bend it to compact it and use it as the apex. Needle prune (cut leaving 1/4" of the needle) and wire every but up. Jin the deadwood sticking up. The idea is jin coming out of the apex. Looks cool.
The next whorl of branches down from the top I see there are 2 coming from the back side. wire one to the left (the smaller one) and the larger one I would wire the first shoot (looks like an inch from the trunk) so that it comes to the front of the tree. The rest of it I would bend left and then bring it right so that it creates a back pad and then extends right for a pad.
The next set of branches (closest to the soil line) I would cut the one closest to the viewer back to the first shoot. You can see my red line. The one in the back that you also have wire on I would cut that leaving a 1" stub. From the pictures it seems as the foliage is too far out and it's straight, bare and boring. There is the little brance just above it thought. Bend that to the left so the first grouping of buds creates a pad then bend the remaining back to the right so you create another back pad and foliage on the right.
If it were my tree I would do that now. Wire every bud up and balance the needles to the weakest branch. Feed well.
Spring work I woud reduce that rootball by atleast 50% and get it into pumice, lava and Akadama only. No native soil mix. Feed it well with poo balls, miracle grow type liquid fert and watch the buds pop. Keep on the needles and getting extension growth where you need it.
This fall you could really compact this guy and set branches. Once you start on that you will see the future is allright with this one.
Disclaimer: I am just getting back into working on trees so I am rusty and could be off on this tree
Hope it helps. Jason
Attachments
StarTurtle
Yamadori
My thoughts are Bunjin are a lot like windswept- it takes a special tree to pull it off. Anything other than a special tree will always look man made or have an appearance of a tree tyring to be a certain style when it really isn't.
That's not to say what you have here is junk, what you have here is a nice little tree that had potential to be good, it just needs a direction, management and love.
So, when I looked at the 1st picture you posted I instantly thought "Stand the tree up" and tilt it to the viewer. I was happy to see that you did just that in later pictures. That is the future of the tree IMO and where I would take it if it were mine. I wouldn't lean it towords the viewer any more because the side profile shows what I would use as the apex already leaning to the viewer perfectly.
I am the worst when it comes to virtuals, so I use MS Paint and stink it up! Crude drawings and text boxes are about the extent of what I can do. Ugly but should get the point across, or so I hope.
Looking at my nice drawing, I would bend the main part of the trunk to the right to get it over the base for balance. I would then take the top branch and bend it to compact it and use it as the apex. Needle prune (cut leaving 1/4" of the needle) and wire every but up. Jin the deadwood sticking up. The idea is jin coming out of the apex. Looks cool.
The next whorl of branches down from the top I see there are 2 coming from the back side. wire one to the left (the smaller one) and the larger one I would wire the first shoot (looks like an inch from the trunk) so that it comes to the front of the tree. The rest of it I would bend left and then bring it right so that it creates a back pad and then extends right for a pad.
The next set of branches (closest to the soil line) I would cut the one closest to the viewer back to the first shoot. You can see my red line. The one in the back that you also have wire on I would cut that leaving a 1" stub. From the pictures it seems as the foliage is too far out and it's straight, bare and boring. There is the little brance just above it thought. Bend that to the left so the first grouping of buds creates a pad then bend the remaining back to the right so you create another back pad and foliage on the right.
If it were my tree I would do that now. Wire every bud up and balance the needles to the weakest branch. Feed well.
Spring work I woud reduce that rootball by atleast 50% and get it into pumice, lava and Akadama only. No native soil mix. Feed it well with poo balls, miracle grow type liquid fert and watch the buds pop. Keep on the needles and getting extension growth where you need it.
This fall you could really compact this guy and set branches. Once you start on that you will see the future is allright with this one.
Disclaimer: I am just getting back into working on trees so I am rusty and could be off on this tree
Hope it helps. Jason
Jason,
Like you I stepped away from Bonsai for about 12 yrs, gave all my trees away and this is my first season back to Bonsai so building collection back up. This is the first season for this JBP to be in a pot and it still has about half of the original soil so that gets more attention in late winter. Smaller pot will also be done. While your drawings are crude (can't say anything mine are worse) but I totally see the idea especially from the second one. getting the back budding will be the trick otherwise I will need some grafting ( I have other JBP in grow boxes to graft from
so if needed I have that source) .Thanks for the comment and possible direction
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
Correction: It takes a VERY special tree.
This ain't it, but as others noted it has promise as something else if you take TIME and CARE with it.
Don't graft scions from another tree. If you must graft, use scions from the same tree. If you have long flexible branches, bend them around and approach graft.
There's been several good threads on how to develop JBP.
There's tons of JBP info on my thread "what's it like to attend an Intensive..." Just ignore the hecklers, lol!
Brian Van Fleet publishes a great JBP ebook on his blog "nebari bonsai".
Check out Jonas's blog "bonsai tonight".
And Eric Schfeler recently posted a great post. Sorry, I can't remember the exact title, but its something like "is this a reasonable way to develop JBP?"
And, yes, I think the tree needs a "half bare root" repot. Next spring.
There's been several good threads on how to develop JBP.
There's tons of JBP info on my thread "what's it like to attend an Intensive..." Just ignore the hecklers, lol!
Brian Van Fleet publishes a great JBP ebook on his blog "nebari bonsai".
Check out Jonas's blog "bonsai tonight".
And Eric Schfeler recently posted a great post. Sorry, I can't remember the exact title, but its something like "is this a reasonable way to develop JBP?"
And, yes, I think the tree needs a "half bare root" repot. Next spring.
StarTurtle
Yamadori
Thanks Adair,
I have looked at the sites you posted awhile back. I am familiar with JBP and shouldnt have any problems working this one back. I guess I should have started with the fact that I just picked up the tree this spring for 20 bucks and got it half way out of the crappy soil it was in and will complete the soil removal this spring. This tree was something to work on my skills a bit and experiment with so I don't mess up on nicer material. The ideas Jason showed gave me food for thought on the direction.
Best Regards
I have looked at the sites you posted awhile back. I am familiar with JBP and shouldnt have any problems working this one back. I guess I should have started with the fact that I just picked up the tree this spring for 20 bucks and got it half way out of the crappy soil it was in and will complete the soil removal this spring. This tree was something to work on my skills a bit and experiment with so I don't mess up on nicer material. The ideas Jason showed gave me food for thought on the direction.
Best Regards
Neli
Omono
A Random User
Guest
- Messages
- 3,554
- Reaction score
- 4,269
If it was mine, I would just pick which ever one of the two bar branches that you
have wired, that has the most growth and is the strongest, and remove everything
else on the tree. Then wire it and bend it to form the continuation of your trunk.
Reason why I say this is that there is no taper on this tree, it doesn't have any
interesting features up top... The best part, is at the base of the trunk, and right
above it. With one of those branches you have an awesome opportunity to put
some movement into the tree, and as it grows and thickens, will give you a nice
taper.
Also, rather than spending years chasing stuff back you are just allowing the design
to grow in, so to speak. Way much easier !!! If this was a yamadori, I would totally
understand how one would want to take the time to chase it back... Seeing that it
is not, I would take the approach of building the tree from the ground up, rather than
reducing the tree from the sky down.
Just my nickel and a quarter...
have wired, that has the most growth and is the strongest, and remove everything
else on the tree. Then wire it and bend it to form the continuation of your trunk.
Reason why I say this is that there is no taper on this tree, it doesn't have any
interesting features up top... The best part, is at the base of the trunk, and right
above it. With one of those branches you have an awesome opportunity to put
some movement into the tree, and as it grows and thickens, will give you a nice
taper.
Also, rather than spending years chasing stuff back you are just allowing the design
to grow in, so to speak. Way much easier !!! If this was a yamadori, I would totally
understand how one would want to take the time to chase it back... Seeing that it
is not, I would take the approach of building the tree from the ground up, rather than
reducing the tree from the sky down.
Just my nickel and a quarter...
Last edited:
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I think everyone missed the $20 part.
This is a righteous tree for $20. Freaking score!
I love the first pic. What the trunk is doing, excellent. I like Jasons red pad virt, but would construct it with the lean. The scarring on that trunk kind of says, " yes, I am leaning this far, look at the hit I took." I really like that angle. To me putting it upright again is reversing the real story nature wrote.
This tree does have too much potential for fullness to bunjin it.
Ill give you $40 for it!
Awesome tree.
Put that Boon care to it and it will be very nice, very soon!
Sorce
This is a righteous tree for $20. Freaking score!
I love the first pic. What the trunk is doing, excellent. I like Jasons red pad virt, but would construct it with the lean. The scarring on that trunk kind of says, " yes, I am leaning this far, look at the hit I took." I really like that angle. To me putting it upright again is reversing the real story nature wrote.
This tree does have too much potential for fullness to bunjin it.
Ill give you $40 for it!
Awesome tree.
Put that Boon care to it and it will be very nice, very soon!
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I dig sawgrass's idea too.
You could leave this alone for now, let it grow and backbud, I reckon it will let you know what it wants in a year or two!
The whole top could be used as a sacrifice for saws plan.
$60?
Sorce
You could leave this alone for now, let it grow and backbud, I reckon it will let you know what it wants in a year or two!
The whole top could be used as a sacrifice for saws plan.
$60?
Sorce
Which ever way you choose to go you should do something about it now. This is a young tree and there is no need to graph right now. With proper pine management (soil, fert, sun) you will get a ton of back buds. In 2 seasons (4 flushes of growth) you could have the design filled in and looking pretty good. Then you can graph in 4 years to get the 1 or 2 buds in key places.
No disrespect to Sawgrasses ideas, they do have merit, but for my eye and taste that leaves you with the same tree, bar branching, long internodes between branches and you still need to style it.
If you do the work now then you can use the back budding and energy to fill where needed now, not all over to just cut it off later. One thing I learned in bonsai when it comes to styling is always go with your gut. You can look at it, spend years letting it develop and then at the end of all of that 9 out of 10 times you end up going with your gut. Now you just wasted years. Bonsai already takes a long time, why add years to it just to do what you wanted anyways???
Its a fun tree, and in 2 hrs time and some copper wire you could have the start of a killer tree that has started its journey. 20 bucks??? I will give you $100 and pay for shipping. Serious
No disrespect to Sawgrasses ideas, they do have merit, but for my eye and taste that leaves you with the same tree, bar branching, long internodes between branches and you still need to style it.
If you do the work now then you can use the back budding and energy to fill where needed now, not all over to just cut it off later. One thing I learned in bonsai when it comes to styling is always go with your gut. You can look at it, spend years letting it develop and then at the end of all of that 9 out of 10 times you end up going with your gut. Now you just wasted years. Bonsai already takes a long time, why add years to it just to do what you wanted anyways???
Its a fun tree, and in 2 hrs time and some copper wire you could have the start of a killer tree that has started its journey. 20 bucks??? I will give you $100 and pay for shipping. Serious
A Random User
Guest
- Messages
- 3,554
- Reaction score
- 4,269
No offense taken...Which ever way you choose to go you should do something about it now. This is a young tree and there is no need to graph right now. With proper pine management (soil, fert, sun) you will get a ton of back buds. In 2 seasons (4 flushes of growth) you could have the design filled in and looking pretty good. Then you can graph in 4 years to get the 1 or 2 buds in key places.
No disrespect to Sawgrasses ideas, they do have merit, but for my eye and taste that leaves you with the same tree, bar branching, long internodes between branches and you still need to style it.
If you do the work now then you can use the back budding and energy to fill where needed now, not all over to just cut it off later. One thing I learned in bonsai when it comes to styling is always go with your gut. You can look at it, spend years letting it develop and then at the end of all of that 9 out of 10 times you end up going with your gut. Now you just wasted years. Bonsai already takes a long time, why add years to it just to do what you wanted anyways???
Its a fun tree, and in 2 hrs time and some copper wire you could have the start of a killer tree that has started its journey. 20 bucks??? I will give you $100 and pay for shipping. Serious
What I wad getting at is that is to pick one of the bar branches and eliminate
The other, as well as everything else. As Sorce has suggested the
The bottom part has some wonderful movement, and the rest of the
Tree just is... it has no movement and no taper.Since there is nothing
Of interest and of value, why just settle with working with what is there.
When if you remove, the sky is the limit on where you can take it.
Now, with junipers and pines, I have personally found that it takes a very
Long time to chase back, and almost no time to cut back and then
Let the foliage grow.
Exactly. By Leaving one of them you are still leaving a branch with bars and issues and hardly any foliage. The trunk would have movement and deadwood at the top with the option I threw out there. The trunk would go left, right (pretty good movement) and dead wood.
Replying on a cell phone sucks!!
jquast
Chumono
Welcome back Jason. Missed your posts here
A Random User
Guest
- Messages
- 3,554
- Reaction score
- 4,269
Not trying to argue here but if one only leaves one
And uses that as your new leader, the continuation of
The trunk, then one would no longer have a bar
Branch, cause the other branches would have been
Removed. Right ? Thus solving the problem of what
Is currently 3 branches protruding from the same point.
