Timeline for trunk wiring on Junipers

[Maiden69]

Hi guys, I acquired this two junipers on March this year from Brent. A kishu and a shimpaku. I wanted to wire them then, but the root ball were very loose and I was afraid to cause more damage than anything after seeing a few threads here of wiring/repotting junipers at the same time causing severe dieback.

I took a look at them yesterday and they are growing strong, with plenty of runners everywhere. When would be a good time for introducing some bends into the trunk? Or am I too late given the size they have now?

Also, this coming spring when I repot into Root Pouches, can I remove all the nursery soil, given they are young trees?



Kishu



Shimpaku

 

[IzzyG]

We just had a discussion about this topic while at Mirai. The consensus seems to be Spring and Fall being ideal times to do heavy work(with Fall being the preferred option between the two). Early summer should be used for post harden pruning and some light work(adjustments of secondary or tertiary branches). Young vigorous nursery junipers however, can be worked on during early summer but it's not as ideal(although most bounce back fine since they're young).

Personally I'd just wait till Fall to work on them but I've always erred on the cautious side.

 

[Maiden69]

We just had a discussion about this topic while at Mirai. The consensus seems to be Spring and Fall being ideal times to do heavy work(with Fall being the preferred option between the two). Early summer should be used for post harden pruning and some light work(adjustments of secondary or tertiary branches). Young vigorous nursery junipers however, can be worked on during early summer but it's not as ideal(although most bounce back fine since they're young).

Personally I'd just wait till Fall to work on them but I've always erred on the cautious side.

Thanks, I don't think there is much to do now then. I'll see if I can get some pictures tonight to post their actual status, but I think I will wait till fall to do the bending. While they are young I want to give them the best chance to move survive the work, especially given how hot its been this summer.

 

[River's Edge]

Given the age of the stock and your location I would suggest you have plenty of time for development and wiring. Therefore I would choose to repot with soil change this fall. Leave the wiring until early spring. This is based on mostly soil change, sorting roots but minimal root cutting as you are likely introducing them into larger containers. You mentioned root pouches as a preferred option, I would consider a flatter, wider possibility to develop better root ball shape. Junipers can benefit from less root work at a time but careful and regular root work. Thus, I prefer a different shape for development. If you are choosing the root pouch for ground growing than just be sure the roots are started right before confining them to the root pouch for a number of years. Or just plant them directly in the ground to avoid too much root congestion over time.
Long winded way of saying root pouches can create poor results. The other aspect is developing more of a spread to the nebari in the beginning, rather than down or circling.

 

[trigo]

I did some crazy bending during our fall here in Brazil. Everything went ok, no dieback.



Kind of hard to see through photos but i did 180 degrees bends on 2 branches thicker than a fat finger.

 

[hampton]

I’m in the exact same boat material wise - I was planning to clean them enough to put some wire on in early September and give them some movement, then repot into boxes in Spring ‘24

 

[yenling83]

Shimpaku or Shinpaku (i'm not sure which one is actually correct) just means Juniper in Japanese. So you could say Shimpaku California or Shimpaku Kishu. Kishu and Itowigawa are regions in Japan which these two popular varieties came from.

Your trees look nice and healthy, IMO you can wire and twist them up pretty much any time during the growing season. If it's super hot out, I might put them under shade cloth and ensure appropriate watering, but you could def do this work in summer. I would save the re-potting until late winter/early spring, right before the tree has it's largest push of growth. Generally you want to pick either wiring/styling or repotting in a year and not do them both. Do the thing you didn't do the following year.

 

[Maiden69]

Given the age of the stock and your location I would suggest you have plenty of time for development and wiring. Therefore I would choose to repot with soil change this fall. Leave the wiring until early spring. This is based on mostly soil change, sorting roots but minimal root cutting as you are likely introducing them into larger containers. You mentioned root pouches as a preferred option, I would consider a flatter, wider possibility to develop better root ball shape. Junipers can benefit from less root work at a time but careful and regular root work. Thus, I prefer a different shape for development. If you are choosing the root pouch for ground growing than just be sure the roots are started right before confining them to the root pouch for a number of years. Or just plant them directly in the ground to avoid too much root congestion over time.
Long winded way of saying root pouches can create poor results. The other aspect is developing more of a spread to the nebari in the beginning, rather than down or circling.

Frank, so you say to wire to shape now, repot in fall (we don't have a true fall here, so I'm guessing November-December?) with no root cutting, just rearranging leaving the wire till early spring.

I do have larger root pouches, and I have root pruning fabric from "the root maker" that I can make "pots" as large and whatever shape I need. I have been folding my Root Pouch in 1/2 or 1/3 depending on the trees. Here are some examples of the JBP I replanted this spring. The first two are 1 gal pouches, the other one is a 2 gal. I have several 3, 5, and 7 gal available to use. They will go into my above ground planted, similar to the one you have posted, but mine are backfilled with mulch because I have no access to nicer substrates in my area. Maybe in the future I will freight in a few yards of pumice, but that would be once I can convince myself that I can handle this kind of work without killing too many trees... I think last time I check prices it was around $500-$700 per yard of pumice shipped to my location.

Link to my ficus repot.

Ficus Tiger Bark progression

I think I am finally going to start making threads of my trees to keep up with the progression as I rather enjoy reading the progression threads posted here by many members. I bought this ficus last July last summer discounted at Lowes. Going to try to dig up some pictures but the tree was not...

www.bonsainut.com

So far I had great experiences (or good luck) using the Root Pouch brand. I think only my ficus developed a large root, while giving me great ramification close to the trunk. Especially on my JBP.

 

[Maiden69]

Shimpaku or Shinpaku (i'm not sure which one is actually correct) just means Juniper in Japanese. So you could say Shimpaku California or Shimpaku Kishu. Kishu and Itowigawa are regions in Japan which these two popular varieties came from.

Yes, I remember Bjorn and Ryan explaining the name a long time ago. Thanks for the advice as well, I think I will go ahead with the wiring, and proceed in fall depending on how the trees react. I had good luck rearranging JBP roots during fall with no root pruning at that time from the stock I receive from Brent. His substrate is on the big side and almost always easy to remove without too much damage.

Here is the description of both from Brent's site. For reference for people that may not know.

5450 Juniperus chinensis 'Shimpaku' (Shimpaku Juniper) The classic Japanese bonsai species. Deep green soft scaly foliage to about 3 feet x 6 feet makes a very dense flat mound. Pinching the tips keeps it very compact. Excellent rock garden plant. Our 2 3/4 inch pot size plants are one to two year old cuttings and grown as whips, so that you can either prune them to force branching or wire them for kengai (cascades). Four inch size plants, when available, are exceptional plants pruned and shaped to about 8 inches with moving upright trunks and about 1/2 inch caliper. Our one gallon size plants have been grown out and pruned back to about 16 inches but are unshaped with 5/8 to 3/4 inch trunk caliper.

5455 Juniperus chinensis 'Kishu Shimpaku' Similar to 'Shimpaku' but smaller and tighter foliage. From near the city of Kishu in Japan, very hard to find.

I have a small Itoigawa that I bought from Matt O this year, its on a 4" pot getting used to the heat... the ones from Brent are thriving for sure. Brent has been sold out of Itoigawa for quite some time now.

 

[yenling83]

Yes, I remember Bjorn and Ryan explaining the name a long time ago. Thanks for the advice as well, I think I will go ahead with the wiring, and proceed in fall depending on how the trees react. I had good luck rearranging JBP roots during fall with no root pruning at that time from the stock I receive from Brent. His substrate is on the big side and almost always easy to remove without too much damage.

Here is the description of both from Brent's site. For reference for people that may not know.



I have a small Itoigawa that I bought from Matt O this year, its on a 4" pot getting used to the heat... the ones from Brent are thriving for sure. Brent has been sold out of Itoigawa for quite some time now.

Not the best pics, because they are screenshots from videos I took, but here's a couple I twisted up maybe around 8 yrs(can't remember exactly) which were cuttings I took off Brents Kishu. Still have a few more years to go before starting to work on branching.

 

[pandacular]

Shimpaku or Shinpaku (i'm not sure which one is actually correct) just means Juniper in Japanese

Unsatisfying answer to which is correct: both! `mp` and `np` are voiced exactly the same, so how you chose to Romanize that sound is entirely up to you. Seriously, try to hear a difference between the two words as spoken without adding a substantial pause/stress; I bet you can't tell them apart even if you try to say them differently. I would say that generally from what I've seen in other Japanese words with similar phonemes, `np` is prefered...but the Western bonsai world tends to prefer shimpaku. I would guess that most native Japanese speakers would not care and would use them interchangeably.

 

[River's Edge]

Frank, so you say to wire to shape now, repot in fall (we don't have a true fall here, so I'm guessing November-December?) with no root cutting, just rearranging leaving the wire till early spring.

Not really, I thought I said you did not have to think about wiring now, it could be done next spring or even the following fall after resettling the plants with a fall repot in a few months. Timing may be very different in your location. Typically it is a good time to do minor repotting with limited root work before winter and the trees recover quickly and are ready to work in the spring.
I see getting the root format sorted as a higher priority at this stage of development, so would take the time to settle that first, even if it took another year! Those young trees have plenty of time for wire work in my opinion.

I see what you mean by the root pouches used in that manner to promote air pruning of feeder roots. I was envisioning the root pouches used to plant in the ground such as Telperion farms used. I guess I assumed you were after greater trunk growth at this stage and thinking that was a priority. My preference is for nebari radiating outward on more of a flat plane than downward, particularly on smaller trees. So I would establish some flatter spread and then work on developing the ramification of feeder roots. Probably just a bit slower process on my part creating separate stages.

Another approach is to wire the young extension growth for real twisty styles and then air layer off the desired portion to grow out the trunk. This can be accomplished by using the extensions of the plants you are developing in different more upright styles over time!

 

[Paradox]

I wouldn't wire and twist juniper in Texas summer, 95+ degree heat. I wouldn't do it in 85 degree summer here either

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I was watching a bonsaiQ video today and they decided to put off wiring a shimpaku they had just styled. I got the impression they were concerned the bark would slip too easily in the wiring process. I generally do not wire during the growing season on most species for this very reason. With sap flowing under the bark it can slip easily. I got anxious recently and tried it with a boxwood and ended up removing bark on a couple of branches before I regained my senses and stopped.

 

[Maiden69]

I see what you mean by the root pouches used in that manner to promote air pruning of feeder roots. I was envisioning the root pouches used to plant in the ground such as Telperion farms used

Actually, this is what I am doing. The difference between regular pouches and Root Pouch or Root Maker pouches is that they prune by entrapment and not by air pruning. You can use them above or in-ground and still achieve the same results. You can place the pouch on the ground and there will be minimal roots escaping. I have my bald cypresses in pouches and in water and there are maybe 2-3 roots that escape and elongate.

Pines in grow bed


Liquidambar

Another approach is to wire the young extension growth for real twisty styles and then air layer off the desired portion to grow out the trunk. This can be accomplished by using the extensions of the plants you are developing in different more upright styles over time!

I think this would be a good option as well.

Not the best pics, because they are screenshots from videos I took, but here's a couple I twisted up maybe around 8 yrs(can't remember exactly) which were cuttings I took off Brents Kishu. Still have a few more years to go before starting to work on branching.

I was watching a propagation video from Mirai last night where he was wiring and planting juniper cuttings. My success with cuttings is not that great, so I think Frank's airlayer option would be better for me. I think that way I can also push the growth of the tree at the same time as developing the future layers faster than if I was to do cuttings and wait for them to root and get strong enough to work on.

 

[River's Edge]

Actually, this is what I am doing. The difference between regular pouches and Root Pouch or Root Maker pouches is that they prune by entrapment and not by air pruning. You can use them above or in-ground and still achieve the same results. You can place the pouch on the ground and there will be minimal roots escaping. I have my bald cypresses in pouches and in water and there are maybe 2-3 roots that escape and elongate.

Pines in grow bed
View attachment 498997

Liquidambar
View attachment 498998


I think this would be a good option as well.


I was watching a propagation video from Mirai last night where he was wiring and planting juniper cuttings. My success with cuttings is not that great, so I think Frank's airlayer option would be better for me. I think that way I can also push the growth of the tree at the same time as developing the future layers faster than if I was to do cuttings and wait for them to root and get strong enough to work on.

The air layer technique is very effective. A couple of details can improve the effectiveness considerably. 1. Use larger wire for the bending with longer wraps. ( vary the bends so the trunk does not cross but has interesting variation) 2. Plan ahead so the area that will be air layered is vertical and has sufficient space for the air layer. ( being vertical improve the spread of the root formation initially.
The key aspect is the young extension growth is very pliable and allows for tighter movement with wire. The larger wire distributes the pressure better and does not cut in so quickly. Also when bending use the wire, grasp the wire and the whip. Pressure points only between coils with wire on the outside of the bend. ( common best practise)
I slipped out to the nursery for an example.
The pictures show an older mother plant that I have been air layering the extensions off to create interesting juniper pre bonsai.
It still has three or four longer growth extensions that I will air layer off next spring. The last picture is a sample that is further along in development after air layering. Just quick phone pictures to illustrate the point.

 

[Maiden69]

@River's Edge thanks Frank.

 

[Maiden69]

This guys are doing great and loving the Texas heat... shooting a lot of runners that will definitely get some wire work in spring.

I think I am going to make this mother stock and do like @River's Edge suggested. Move into Root Pouch bags this fall with minimal root work, just arrange them to better the nebari, and air layer sections as they develop.

 

[Maiden69]

This suckers are loving Texas hot weather...

July 2023



First week of September 2023

 

[pandacular]

I wanted to wire them then, but the root ball were very loose

I'm curious if the root balls seem more stable after the big summer growth.