Time for Decisions on the JBP

[LanceMac10]

I'm about to do some root work on these this month. I'll be posting pictures.

Your picture was used as an example of a well constructed grow-box. Picked from a sizing a grow box thread....

....and of course, share documentation.....bonsai is about as "visual" as it gets...

 

[rollwithak]

Lance, Rollwithak might want an expose root style with that deep pot. You never know.

I wish I had that much foresight when I started this little guy. I didn’t know what I was doing much when I started this and just wanted to keep it healthy, which I think I’ve done an OK job at. Now I wanna practice some bonsai techniques with reduction and making it a smaller tree!!! I don’t wanna kill it but ultimately, it was a learning experience and a lot of fun thus far

 

[rollwithak]

I'm about to do some root work on these this month. I'll be posting pictures.

Did you have an individual thread for this? Feel free to post here too !

 

[Pitoon]

Did you have an individual thread for this? Feel free to post here too !

No, I never started a thread on these. I just took pics of the progress along the way. Maybe when I get a good amount of pics I can start one.

I didn't get a chance yet to work the roots, and they have already leafed out. No time these past couple of weeks, maybe this weekend if the weather cooperates?

 

[rollwithak]

I’ve been doing pretty well at leaving this pine alone. I snipped a couple of the roots wrapping at the base, rolled the dice a bit. Had some tip browning but other than that the tree still looks vigorous and healthy.

What my concern is right now is one of the branches at the bottom has very weak candles and I want to make sure they stay alive and healthy.

You can see in the pictures, the small candles at the bottom and the vigorous candles at the top. Anything to at can be done right now (late spring in fresno) to help ensure the bottom growth stays healthy? Cut top candles back? Pull some pine needles?

 

[memehongkong]

Very interested in these wood box. Do you need to drill for drainage holes, or just leave gaps between the supporting wood peices?

I could watch Charlie Murphy's "Hollywood Stories" on a loop.......

Try the half-bare root method. I imagine you'll have to address some longer, thicker rootage down towards the bottom of the rootball.

I would address the weaker side of the roots first. The stronger side will have to pick up the slack until vigor evens out.

Shallow is kind of catch-all...

......photo from @Pitoon .....plenty of space and deep enough for your purposes....

 

[rollwithak]

I

Very interested in these wood box. Do you need to drill for drainage holes, or just leave gaps between the supporting wood peices?

I’ll let the professionals confirm but I believe some may use like a mesh wire sheet underneath

 

[rollwithak]

I stand corrected.

Build instructions for a bonsai growbox - Growing Bonsai

A basic instruction to create a wooden growbox for bonsai It really is very easy to build a basic growbox for your trees. Besides some bits of wood, all you …

www.growingbonsai.net

Very interested in these wood box. Do you need to drill for drainage holes, or just leave gaps between the supporting wood peices?

 

[memehongkong]

I stand corrected.

Build instructions for a bonsai growbox - Growing Bonsai

A basic instruction to create a wooden growbox for bonsai It really is very easy to build a basic growbox for your trees. Besides some bits of wood, all you …

www.growingbonsai.net

Thanks. Just bookmark the page. I receive pallets sometime at work and they will be great to be use for the box. Sorry to highjack the thread just thought they look really cool.

 

[Pitoon]

Very interested in these wood box. Do you need to drill for drainage holes, or just leave gaps between the supporting wood peices?

On my boxes there's no holes, just gaps between the slats. Then I place a piece of window screen cut to fit to keep the substrate from falling through the gaps.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I’ve been doing pretty well at leaving this pine alone. I snipped a couple of the roots wrapping at the base, rolled the dice a bit. Had some tip browning but other than that the tree still looks vigorous and healthy.

What my concern is right now is one of the branches at the bottom has very weak candles and I want to make sure they stay alive and healthy.

You can see in the pictures, the small candles at the bottom and the vigorous candles at the top. Anything to at can be done right now (late spring in fresno) to help ensure the bottom growth stays healthy? Cut top candles back? Pull some pine needles?View attachment 427543View attachment 427544View attachment 427545

Energy balance from top to bottom. Keep low branch unmessed with! Remove unneeded strong candles. Shorten ones to keep. Strength should go to untouched lower branch(s). Personally would also foliar feed(low branch)and keep Sun exposed.

 

[rollwithak]

@Shibui

I didn’t want to highjack the other thread. You’ve actually seen this tree before and
replied. Here are a few pictures from today. I’ve just let all the sacrifice branches go just so I would thicken the trunk even more. I actually cut off the two strongest candles from each of the 4 apical branches this week.

I really like your idea of bringing the apex lower to affect the hormones that way.

 

[River's Edge]

When trying to keep lower branches healthy, it is important to balance the need to thicken the trunk and keep the lower portion from weakening!
Your idea of removing needles and shortening or removing some candles in on the right track. Here is a photo to illustrate the concept in practice.
Note that the sacrifice branch for thickening retains the central candle plus one other for extension. This gives the best result for thickening the trunk.
Also note that all the side branches not needed for design on the sacrifice branch are removed. This balances energy to the lower portion.
next note that lower shoots or branches needed in the design are wired out and kept in sun with good air movement. the tips of these shoots and branches are wired down to limit the influence of "auxin" .
Just a general guideline for your situation, I would consider the area above the red line as sacrifice branch at least at this stage of development. This retains future options for sacrifice branches in the future, plus it balances the energy to strengthen the lower portion of your tree. Just my perspective.

When I read through your comments you seem unsure if you should try and get a flatter root ball and place in a larger/ flatter container. I would encourage you to do so, the tree is young and with the proper approach will respond well. To put this in a different perspective many field grown trees and collected yamadori are dug up and the root ball is gradually transformed and made suitable for Bonsai.
If your desire is to maintain a small trunk and develop as is then the small pot will keep it small and thin with a deeper root system that will be harder to correct in later years.

If you want to try transplanting the tree in a larger flatter container I would use the following approach. Remove the tree from the pot and carefully untangle and spread out the lower more flexible roots as much as possible. Do not be concerned about trying to remove a lot of soil and do not cut a bunch of roots at this stage. Once flattened and spread out as much as possible. Select a few strong downward roots and trim them back to where side shoots are on the thicker roots. leave the rest alone and secure firmly in the new container. Now over time the goal will be to remove upper roots that are too high on the trunk and even the spread of thicker or medium roots around the trunk. You can do this in a safer manner by taking a cut out of the root to reduce the dependance of the tree on that root and then removing it later, after the tree has had a chance to recover from the injury and become more dependant on the rest of the root system. This is safer than cutting it off in one go.
Container size can really limit growth and so in the early stages of JBP development, larger flatter containers can really assist trunk thickening and nebari development. I know you have received conflicting advice so you will have to weigh the pros and cons and decide for yourself. Thought you should have an option.

 

[rollwithak]

When trying to keep lower branches healthy, it is important to balance the need to thicken the trunk and keep the lower portion from weakening!
Your idea of removing needles and shortening or removing some candles in on the right track. Here is a photo to illustrate the concept in practice.
Note that the sacrifice branch for thickening retains the central candle plus one other for extension. This gives the best result for thickening the trunk.
Also note that all the side branches not needed for design on the sacrifice branch are removed. This balances energy to the lower portion.
next note that lower shoots or branches needed in the design are wired out and kept in sun with good air movement. the tips of these shoots and branches are wired down to limit the influence of "auxin" .
Just a general guideline for your situation, I would consider the area above the red line as sacrifice branch at least at this stage of development. This retains future options for sacrifice branches in the future, plus it balances the energy to strengthen the lower portion of your tree. Just my perspective.

When I read through your comments you seem unsure if you should try and get a flatter root ball and place in a larger/ flatter container. I would encourage you to do so, the tree is young and with the proper approach will respond well. To put this in a different perspective many field grown trees and collected yamadori are dug up and the root ball is gradually transformed and made suitable for Bonsai.
If your desire is to maintain a small trunk and develop as is then the small pot will keep it small and thin with a deeper root system that will be harder to correct in later years.

If you want to try transplanting the tree in a larger flatter container I would use the following approach. Remove the tree from the pot and carefully untangle and spread out the lower more flexible roots as much as possible. Do not be concerned about trying to remove a lot of soil and do not cut a bunch of roots at this stage. Once flattened and spread out as much as possible. Select a few strong downward roots and trim them back to where side shoots are on the thicker roots. leave the rest alone and secure firmly in the new container. Now over time the goal will be to remove upper roots that are too high on the trunk and even the spread of thicker or medium roots around the trunk. You can do this in a safer manner by taking a cut out of the root to reduce the dependance of the tree on that root and then removing it later, after the tree has had a chance to recover from the injury and become more dependant on the rest of the root system. This is safer than cutting it off in one go.
Container size can really limit growth and so in the early stages of JBP development, larger flatter containers can really assist trunk thickening and nebari development. I know you have received conflicting advice so you will have to weigh the pros and cons and decide for yourself. Thought you should have an option.

Thank you for taking the time to go over this with me. I like hearing multiple perspectives exactly for that reason, because you see that there are several ways to do things. I also like that I’m not too far off with my instincts. I have cut a couple of the roots that are wrapping but I made sure not to do them all. I figure just what you said would be the case, the other roots would eventually take over and help the tree recover from the wound. The tree definitely became unhappy with me in the following week, browned tips all over, but it will be fine. I am also using the exact portion that you outlined as the sacrifice portion. The advice I received today was that maybe I should take it down to a single sacrificial branch. Which is eventually what I planned on and will be doing.

For the time being I was just letting the tree gain vigor and wanted that trunk to thicken up. Next will be to get it into a grow box and flatten out the roots as you suggested. Thank you for that detailed explanation of how to handle the roots. I’d really like to find a video of someone doing this process so I can do some homework before attempting.

I did mess up a bit according to your advice… I cut the central and strongest candles. It sounds like I should have cut the ones surrounding that if I’m hearing you correctly. Oh well, there are still several candles there so hopefully it does the trick!

thanks again!

 

[Shibui]

There's a lot to take in with pines.
I concur with what @River's Edge has said about pines but in my conditions I seem to be able to cut roots a little harder than mentioned.

As to sacrifice branch I'm wondering if you may be trying to push this one just a bit too hard. Sometimes maximum thickening is not the best strategy and I believe you are seeing some of the results of this in the weaker growth down low.
It seems to help to separate the sacrifice growth from the lower section we want to keep. To this end, remove the needles on the lower sacrifice trunk. Cut sacrifice branches down to a single strong branch. Side branches (and all those extra needles) on the sacrifice branches shade the lower sections and can weaken those lower branches more than a single sacrifice. All that extra growth might give you some extra thickening but if it is at the expense of your vital lower branches is it worth it?
Maybe other growers can do it different but that's my experience so far.

In your case the sacrifice branch can probably be lowered to balance auxin flow and relative strength quickly and can be raised again later when balance has been restored. In some cases that's not possible and pruning the regrow a new sacrifice is the only option..
I would still strip some of the excess growth, preferably the lower needles and a couple of the lower branches on the sacrifice (as well as lowering the tip) to allow the lower shoots to gain some strength.

 

[River's Edge]

I did mess up a bit according to your advice… I cut the central and strongest candles. It sounds like I should have cut the ones surrounding that if I’m hearing you correctly. Oh well, there are still several candles there so hopefully it does the trick!

No worries, when one wants a branch to extend keep the strongest remaining apical candle ( it will take over) and one other medium candle. remove the rest. This focuses the growth on extension for the sacrifice branch or leader. If you want to slow down the growth on a branch cut the apical candle off and shorten the other side candles. This is assuming that you are maintaining a reasonable number of candles and needles to maintain vigour. A general guideline is to reduce to two candles on all branches that are being maintained and treat the sacrifice branches or leaders as mentioned above.
The best guideline for developing JBP is to keep as many shoots, needles as possible for as long as possible. In other words remove only when they are creating a possible growth issue if left. Some of these are.
1. possibly shading a weaker area that is part of the design going forward.
2. creating inverse taper due to numerous branches remaining for too long on a whorl.
3. creating an imbalance in energy, JBP are apically dominant so the upper portion is watched carefully that it does not weaken the lower portion due to its excessive vigour.

Critical point that many misunderstand is that JBP can retain needles for four or five years if vigorous. This is an advantage to development because back budding occurs from " needle buds" and "adventitious buds" The longer you can keep needles the better the chance of a needle bud at the base of the needles. Adventitious buds are encouraged with wiring and opening up the area as one cuts back into the existing healthy needles.
For those advanced in developing pines the selective reduction of needles offers an opportunity to encourage shoots in specific locations rather than undesirable locations. Thus the direction could be to remove top and bottom needle pairs on a branch and leave side pairs where desired.
Bottom line: best not to make it a habit to always remove last years needles when developing young pines. This is an important step for further refinement and advanced development but can set back and slow down progress with younger trees in earlier stages of development. For several reasons. 1. less chance of needle buds 2. less vigour from lower level of photosynthesis with fewer needles. 3. makes for a more difficult stage of increasing shoot density in the interior later on in development.

Second critical point in development that is often misunderstood is the importance of new shoots lower down. Very few of the original shoots will be used in design, many more will occur in healthy stock after pruning back the sacrifice leader and branches during the various stages of development. The implications of this point are simply that with proper care and process many design opportunities will occur later in development. The focus on keeping initial shoots is important to contribute to health and vigour but not always the need for design.

If you think things through as follows it will help the most.
What stage is my tree at?
What steps are appropriate at this stage?
How healthy is my Tree? So how careful or aggressive can I be with the appropriate steps.

The above presupposes a clear understanding of the stages of development and therein lies the rub for those offering advice and those taking advice. Both need to be on the same page for advice to work. Ok off the soap box. Hope some of the above makes sense!