Time for Decisions on the JBP

[rollwithak]

Hi All,

Looking for peoples opinions on where I should go with this from here. My inexperienced instinct tells me it’s about time to cut back. Or I could let this seasons flush come and thicken the trunk more, however I’m afraid the lower branching might start dying off.

Pictures could be better but, let me know your thoughts, opinions and ideas!!!

thanks in advance!

 

[Shibui]

Your JBP is still quite young. I can see there are still needles on the lower trunk which means that part is less than 3 years old. JBP can easily produce new buds wherever there are healthy needles and will also usually bud on bare wood where needles fell in the last year or 2.
JBP needles usually live for 3 years before dying and dropping in the 3rd summer. This means you can count the age of a youngish pine and can also calculate when and where to chop.
You can chop this year or leave that one for another year quite safely.

We see JBP grown with a large apical sacrifice branch - essentially the apical part of the young trunk. The trunk is allowed to grow freely while a few lower branches are pruned to maintain a compact section that will be the real bonsai so you can also consider leaving the main trunk but pruning the lower branches you want to use later.

 

[JeffS73]

Have you decided how big a tree you want? Decide if your next trunk section comes from the first or second whorl of branches. If its the first, consider removing branches or needles above that are shading out those lower branches. If its the second you may want to add more trunk movement.
If the trunk is swelling at the whorl you will use, consider removing excess branches.
Remember that anything you remove slows the tree down, you want it growing strong.

Your tree is like most of mine, the biggest challenges are waiting for it to grow enough to work on, and that all options are on the table which feeds indecision!

 

[sorce]

I would be more concerned with the roots than the foliage.

I'd say you have between 2 and 4 years to allow it unrestrained growth in that pot which can help you get it into a more appropriate pot.

After that, you'll pass a crossroads where you must remove foliage to protect design (not shading low growth) but then not have enough top available to regrow the roots you'll need after cutting what will have to be cut from that pot to get it into something more appropriate.

If an appropriate root pruning basket a similar shape of the final pot is best, because you don't have to cut any roots to pot it correctly, something like this deep pot, where most roots will grow in areas that must be cut off upon potting correctly, is towards the worst.

Roots First!

Question....where did this come from and why does it seem like a seedling grown with roots that already circle the trunk?

Asking since, under year 3, I reckon seeds can be grown more appropriately from the beginning.

Sorce

 

[rollwithak]

I would be more concerned with the roots than the foliage.

I'd say you have between 2 and 4 years to allow it unrestrained growth in that pot which can help you get it into a more appropriate pot.

After that, you'll pass a crossroads where you must remove foliage to protect design (not shading low growth) but then not have enough top available to regrow the roots you'll need after cutting what will have to be cut from that pot to get it into something more appropriate.

If an appropriate root pruning basket a similar shape of the final pot is best, because you don't have to cut any roots to pot it correctly, something like this deep pot, where most roots will grow in areas that must be cut off upon potting correctly, is towards the worst.

Roots First!

Question....where did this come from and why does it seem like a seedling grown with roots that already circle the trunk?

Asking since, under year 3, I reckon seeds can be grown more appropriately from the beginning.

Sorce

So if I’m hearing you correctly….. I need to just leave it growing into this pot for now so I can make sure there are enough roots available for when I need to cut and repot in a couple of years? I know the roots are an issue but I wasn’t real sure how to address them right now. I cut off one of the visible circulating roots.

This plant was given to me from a friend when it was about 1-2 years old. My inexperience at the time prevented me from messing with the roots when I put it in this pot, I merely transplanted it as is.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Personally would move into grow box for several years to develop at least 3-4" trunk. Considering uninteresting straight trunk would consider lowest 3-4 branches as future of tree and all above as sacrifice.

 

[sorce]

need to just leave it growing into this pot for now so I can make sure there are enough roots available for when I need to cut and repot

Not exactly. More to make sure you have enough top for when you Repot, because it's likely you'll have to cut a lot of roots.
I hope you don't intend to cut and repot at the same time,
I find that too risky, better to Repot with a full head of steam to regrow roots, forgive my assumption this was understood, I think that's where the confusion lies.

The crossroads, the pickle, is when you MUST cut growth before it ruins your low branches for design. You don't want to be caught needing to Repot with such little foliage. Seems about 2-4 years till then.

So I would aim to Repot it, more or less ASAP, but when is possible?
If my math, your math and Shibui's math is correct, it been in there one year?
It's hard to feel from here how much root growth it had or has, so I couldn't/shouldn't give a Repot date, but it should happen before that 2-4 year window when the pickle hits.

I hope that makes sense.

Sorce

 

[rollwithak]

Not exactly. More to make sure you have enough top for when you Repot, because it's likely you'll have to cut a lot of roots.
I hope you don't intend to cut and repot at the same time,
I find that too risky, better to Repot with a full head of steam to regrow roots, forgive my assumption this was understood, I think that's where the confusion lies.

The crossroads, the pickle, is when you MUST cut growth before it ruins your low branches for design. You don't want to be caught needing to Repot with such little foliage. Seems about 2-4 years till then.

So I would aim to Repot it, more or less ASAP, but when is possible?
If my math, your math and Shibui's math is correct, it been in there one year?
It's hard to feel from here how much root growth it had or has, so I couldn't/shouldn't give a Repot date, but it should happen before that 2-4 year window when the pickle hits.

I hope that makes sense.

Sorce

Yes it makes sense. I might see if it pulls up out of that pot in one big rootball…. If it is, I may do it this spring. If not, I’ll let it grow one more season in the pot. It’s got a healthy set of buds that it plans on pushing out in the spring so….. when these grow out it will also make the plant lean more, giving it a little more character even

 

[rollwithak]

Not exactly. More to make sure you have enough top for when you Repot, because it's likely you'll have to cut a lot of roots.
I hope you don't intend to cut and repot at the same time,
I find that too risky, better to Repot with a full head of steam to regrow roots, forgive my assumption this was understood, I think that's where the confusion lies.

The crossroads, the pickle, is when you MUST cut growth before it ruins your low branches for design. You don't want to be caught needing to Repot with such little foliage. Seems about 2-4 years till then.

So I would aim to Repot it, more or less ASAP, but when is possible?
If my math, your math and Shibui's math is correct, it been in there one year?
It's hard to feel from here how much root growth it had or has, so I couldn't/shouldn't give a Repot date, but it should happen before that 2-4 year window when the pickle hits.

I hope that makes sense.

Sorce

Yo Sorce….

In your experience, when I do pull this up, what percentage of the roots can I take off? I know that it’s hard to work on roots at the base and that’s why people grow from seed abs perform cutting method, but what am I going to be able to do at this point? Is it still young enough to take it down pretty bare?

 

[LanceMac10]

search for half-bare rooting a JBP re-pot....drastic root reduction is very stressful on this tree variety....

 

[LanceMac10]

A thread of a JBP of mine to look thru....

Lance's JBP....

Heading home shortly, so I figured I would put up a photo and ask the Pine Pros to put on their teacher sweater and offer some tips. I acquired this tree from a friend whom is battling Parkinsons. Tough to say when the last time properly applied techniques were applied. The top is getting leggy...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[LanceMac10]

Hey, your in Fresno.....what have you been waiting for.....

 

[sorce]

Yo Sorce….

In your experience, when I do pull this up, what percentage of the roots can I take off? I know that it’s hard to work on roots at the base and that’s why people grow from seed abs perform cutting method, but what am I going to be able to do at this point? Is it still young enough to take it down pretty bare?

Everything we went over before, is geared towards the effort of having to remove as little as possible.

No one knows for sure what you CAN take off.

The idea of PPB, or keeping Potential Problems at Bay, I'd argue is twice as important to keep in mind with the roots, because they must be designed, but they are also the engine.

So, as I picked up from Walter Pall, don't cut anything you don't have to.
I translate what Ryan Neil says about allowing health to allow backbuds to an understanding of roots and see why this works so well.

Root growth makes root growth, so only the worst offenders of aesthetics should be cut first, then anything that doesn't allow it to fit into the next container, but only after exhausting all containment possibilities that may allow you to leave on every root.

Basically, don't cut anything on the first repotting.
Let the new environment strengthen the core that will go unchanged from pot to pot. When that core is present, then cut what you thought you might have to cut this time.

Sorce

 

[rollwithak]

Hey, your in Fresno.....what have you been waiting for.....

Just been timid and wasn’t sure if I was going to do anything at all. There is still room in this pot, so taking what @sorce said into account, it might not even be worth pulling up out of that pot if I’m not going to remove anything. Just am going to need to start getting it into something smaller soon. Thanks for the direction!

 

[LanceMac10]

Smaller? Current pot is far too deep. As mentioned, build a box for next year, wide and somewhat shallow.

Do you have access to Akadama, pumice and lava rock? It's the optimal growing medium for JBP.

Focus on getting the roots situated in some good soil and an appropriately sized/shape container.

 

[rollwithak]

Smaller? Current pot is far too deep. As mentioned, build a box for next year, wide and somewhat shallow.

Do you have access to Akadama, pumice and lava rock? It's the optimal growing medium for JBP.

Focus on getting the roots situated in some good soil and an appropriately sized/shape container.

Yes I have all 3 of those components in somewhat bulk quantity, so I should be good there. That has been my main question all along, how do I get that deep/tall root structure into something more shallow? Especially by not removing anything

Even if I build a shallow box, it won’t fit in its current situation.

Dude your Prince Chappell gif kills me every time lol

 

[LanceMac10]

I could watch Charlie Murphy's "Hollywood Stories" on a loop.......

Try the half-bare root method. I imagine you'll have to address some longer, thicker rootage down towards the bottom of the rootball.

I would address the weaker side of the roots first. The stronger side will have to pick up the slack until vigor evens out.

Shallow is kind of catch-all...

......photo from @Pitoon .....plenty of space and deep enough for your purposes....

 

[namnhi]

Smaller? Current pot is far too deep. As mentioned, build a box for next year, wide and somewhat shallow.

Do you have access to Akadama, pumice and lava rock? It's the optimal growing medium for JBP.

Focus on getting the roots situated in some good soil and an appropriately sized/shape container.

Lance, Rollwithak might want an expose root style with that deep pot. You never know.

 

[Pitoon]

I could watch Charlie Murphy's "Hollywood Stories" on a loop.......

Try the half-bare root method. I imagine you'll have to address some longer, thicker rootage down towards the bottom of the rootball.

I would address the weaker side of the roots first. The stronger side will have to pick up the slack until vigor evens out.

Shallow is kind of catch-all...

......photo from @Pitoon .....plenty of space and deep enough for your purposes....

I'm about to do some root work on these this month. I'll be posting pictures.

 

[LanceMac10]

Not a fan of that particular look, so let's hope that's not the plan!