Thoughts on 'Ruby Loropetalum' as a bonsai? (I'd be looking to collect a ~3.5' tall shrub)

[SU2]

What happened to this?

Upon re-reading this thread from the beginning, I'm 99% sure this new one I've got right now IS that one!! I knew I'd intended to do a trunk&root chop to one but not collect it, I've gotten 1-2 more (failed) Loro's in the meanwhile from there and this new one was the last one left, as mentioned it'd already been chopped and roots had been cut (and it actually had feeders under the trunk!), I'd guesstimated earlier "Looks like it was chopped by someone ~6-18mo ago" but, seeing my quote from 2yrs ago that I'm going to prep one for future collection, it's gotta be the one I've got now!! The weak rebound-growth - if that's all it's got from ~2yrs since I chopped it up - actually makes sense when I consider its placement was full-sun, non-irrigated....wow so this is a 2yr 2-step lol!!

BTW M.Frary I can't recall enough to paraphrase but I appreciate the insight you gave last year Re climbing-arborism, from around then I got pretty obsessed I got my 1st contact climbs around Oct or Nov, now my free time is bonsai/splicing/tinkering with my saws, has really put a hurt on time w/ bonsai but that's led to a bunch of awesome "wow this has grown 2X what I was expecting!" moments when prepping/pruning my garden right now for 2020

 

[SU2]

I began reducing the amount of direct sunlight a few days ago. It got full sun 8am-noon, maybe partial sun from 1-3pm. I thought that was safe especially for a specimen used for commercial landscapes. I agree with the black plastic. Its been blazing here lately. I water as needed.

I hope it's not too late, while there's seemingly-contradicting info all over, one thing seems for damn-sure: Unlike, say, a bougie, Loro's that're containerized (and probably immature ground-planted but haven't confirmed that) seem to fry in FL sun, almost easy to forget we're sub-tropical & how scorching our sun is... I know w/ my guy here, which seems 99.9% to in fact not be "just another Loro from that hedge" but rather one I trunk-chopped in late '17 (and root-chopped, like dug and cut the biggest lignified roots to force back-rootting under the trunk), so glad I read-back to that in this thread had completely forgotten about it & had been wondering whoTF besides me would've snapped a single limb on this guy's property (large water-front owned by a blind guy, very choosey about who he lets by I'm a friend/do work for him, was so confused who'd have torn off part of one of the Loro's in a defunct part of the yard but re-reading my late-2017 posts I found my answer it was me prepping it, can't believe it worked-out that I'm over there mid-March(perfect collection time!) digging-up all over that area and it *had* to come out...man it just rocked back&forth in its hole I can't believe I didn't put this together before now )

Just checked him, the average bud has now broken and the 3 through-hardwood buds up higher on the trunk are still pushing-through, TBH I'd bet those lil cherry-red dots would show plant-failure earlier than the new buds will (buds escaping hardwood die-back often enough if not strong enough for the push-through, w/ them enlarging every day it should be a clear notice if they slow/reverse/lose hue!

 

[Danteswake]

I cant even imagine working with a collected one. I must say my store bought one is still alive but is in a bad way my friends. Its out of direct sun now. Buds push but seem doa. Water drains well yet retains enough to go 2-3 before next watering. If it survives, any styling tips? Lol, thats a big IF. I think it got slow cooked.

 

[choppychoppy]

Overjoyed to see how many posts I've got to catch-up on but since the last is from a local pro I've gotta answer out of order!




HELL YEAH am stoked you chimed-in man, will keep it in order of importance

1 Sunlight: while it grew-up in full sun (or full til early-evening at least), I'm uncertain how much sun is optimal both now during its initial buds' breakings, and am also uncertain when I've hit the point I can start slowly upping sunlight/acclimating it to full sun (this ties-into my equally important Q:

2- "It made it"....when can I say that w/ a Loro? I know it's both time & visible changes, am certainly going ultra-conservative with him in 2020 but, ideally, guess I'm kinda hoping that in 2wks I have a bunch of 2"-->4" shoots, no change in vigor, is that the "first hump?" I guess I'm worried of vegetative growth coming, not from newly-formed roots, but from cambial reserves (in which case it's basically already dead and, no matter how vigorous it looks, it's already beyond helping.

3 - Fert: Once I can see roots at a drainage hole I figured it'd be ok to start it on some gentle organic 3-4-4 (espoma/gardentone) and use that at-reco'd-dosage for 2020, is that on-point?

4 - Longevity/resiliency: These seem to have a reputation for being hardy, yet I just kept killing them...am I correct in thinking of them as almost analogous to our Southern Oaks IE collecting them is dicey & they're weak as kittens post-collection but, once re-established, they're hardy in a pot? I know of two local hedgerows, one irrigated the other 100% neglected, both survive & grow each year, but know of none in containers and cannot help thinking it's a sensitive-roots plant.. For instance do you root-prune yours as-aggressively as you do most dec.broadleafs?


~~~

Thanks a ton for anything, would even be happy just hearing whatever tidbits you think are most important. Am especially eager to learn when (and then see!!) it's considered "stable" and can be considered "of normal resiliency" in its container (NOT because I wanna start fertilizing/intervening, but because I wanna know I've got it, this species [and rainbow eucs] are some of my 'unicorn' species and I've admired this specific trunk for years now and I finally got it, right time of year and in initial-recovery from trunk-chopping, it even had prior root-chopping and had a surprising amount of sub-trunk fine roots for a Loro (from what I've seen)

I made a new album for Reddit today will link below but now like 15% of the buds have burst and I've now got 3 new buds poked-through hardwood way-up the trunking:
buds today, swelling from cambial reserves or from new roots:
View attachment 292222

Two buds in upper/right-side crotch, one on the left-side, jagged-ended branch (which I'd thought was dead!)
View attachment 292224
~~~

Man seriously I'd trade a serious portion of my collection for this tree in what I picture it could be like IF it survives & flourishes in my care, this species & this particular trunk (just how slow-growing are they? Keep seeing references to slow, I know they're not ficus but real life observation would have me think that, as hedging, they vegetate about as much as comparably sized privets)

Ok brotha. I can kinda answer all of this together. So here's the main issues/tips for these.

#1 they are the weakest tree ever when it comes to anything involving the roots. When collecting or making the first large reduction from a large nursery situation to a lower pot it is SUPER traumatic. You need to plan to have it in whatever it goes into for the next 5 years. I would make sure you see growth on every section of the tree before you start to work the top.

#2 DO NOT PRUNE IT - for at least 1 year totally leave it alone. You don't have to worry about internode length or branch selection bc it is a shrub and naturally grows dense and twiggy. Once it is established it is a weed and will be able to be our ed hard to induce all the growth you need. It also dies back constantly so it is better to leave a lot of branches in the fall as opposed to regular cleanup pruning like on other semi deciduous trees.

florida sun is serious and I recommend dappled light for the first year while it recovers. After it is established it will prefer full full sun. I prune them hard in the summer and remove all the old leaves in the spring as the new flowers and shoots are budding out.

low fert is fine when it has established.

lemme know if I missed something

 

[M. Frary]

Upon re-reading this thread from the beginning, I'm 99% sure this new one I've got right now IS that one!! I knew I'd intended to do a trunk&root chop to one but not collect it, I've gotten 1-2 more (failed) Loro's in the meanwhile from there and this new one was the last one left, as mentioned it'd already been chopped and roots had been cut (and it actually had feeders under the trunk!), I'd guesstimated earlier "Looks like it was chopped by someone ~6-18mo ago" but, seeing my quote from 2yrs ago that I'm going to prep one for future collection, it's gotta be the one I've got now!! The weak rebound-growth - if that's all it's got from ~2yrs since I chopped it up - actually makes sense when I consider its placement was full-sun, non-irrigated....wow so this is a 2yr 2-step lol!!

BTW M.Frary I can't recall enough to paraphrase but I appreciate the insight you gave last year Re climbing-arborism, from around then I got pretty obsessed I got my 1st contact climbs around Oct or Nov, now my free time is bonsai/splicing/tinkering with my saws, has really put a hurt on time w/ bonsai but that's led to a bunch of awesome "wow this has grown 2X what I was expecting!" moments when prepping/pruning my garden right now for 2020

Remember that your safety is of the utmost importance.

 

[SU2]

I cant even imagine working with a collected one. I must say my store bought one is still alive but is in a bad way my friends. Its out of direct sun now. Buds push but seem doa. Water drains well yet retains enough to go 2-3 before next watering. If it survives, any styling tips? Lol, thats a big IF. I think it got slow cooked.

Sadly I fear it's gotten too much heat already I'm def getting a store-bought the moment mine begins failing (even if it doesn't I'm still going to because I love the specie and am no longer opposed to starting bonsai that I don't intend to get to see finished)

Re styling lol no, am sorry but none in this case, that's the epitome of putting the cart before the horse in this context, but short answer would simply be to consider the trunk/material and go from there but no point in wasting your time (and ain't nobody got time to spend theirs ;D ) pondering style for something that's not even established-stock for instance with mine it's got a pretty outstanding trunk (IMO) but I've literally not even considered style I mean it's crossed my mind that it's likely that type of trunk will likely end-up an 'informal upright', much like if yours has a vertical base and then a pronounced, even tilt to the rest of the trunk you'd probably be thinking 'could be a good wind-swept' but til you've seen:
1 - where die-back finishes, and
2 - where your strongest primaries leave the trunk,
you really can't begin anything more than vague generalities for envisioning style (and, if you haven't chosen-style for a good # of specimen, am guessing it's fruitless, hell even-if you've done hundreds of trees it's still pointless because you cannot intervene yet anyway, I've got a wire on 1 branch but I spent minutes carefully placing it so it was a support, holding-up a weak branch / preventing droop of the juvenile leader-tip, only wire-pressure is on bottom of that branch where it's resting-upon wire)

That said, you can begin certain things IMO well before style is chosen, some disagree w/ this but w/ certain very very resilient species, for instance BC's, for side-primaries I'll guide them into a horizontal position if they're pushing upright too-much, this has risks though (snapping juvenile branches, not remembering that such wiring is probably gonna need moving in a week / few weeks if it's appropriately vigorous for such things -- if something's not just a beacon of vigor then getting it to that point is really the only thing that matters, nothing worthwhile in development happens when a tree is stressed)


~~~~~~


My guy's continued the same rate, now almost all buds have broken and a good # are showing multiple distinct lil leaflets forming but, unsure if it's good or bad, but I've had it ~3.5wk and it'd popped a couple buds through-hardwood last week, they're still swelling but now it's got a few more -- including spots near the top of the entire trunk, spots I was sure were dead -- can't tell if it's vigor, or that pre-death, panic-vigor trees/shrubs show (where, starved for starch, they fruitlessly try pushing as much foliage as possible), total opposite-ends of a spectrum and am uncertain how to interpret At-minimum, I've got more flesh/cambial-tissue than I'd thought which is always a good thing IME, almost as-if resources are re-directed even though I've always pictured resources-up/hormones-down)

Can't imagine it could keep this pace much longer w/o commensurate roots, would love to just lift it up / hose the roots and see a ton of vigorous feeders there (obviously would be moronic am just saying!), if this is a death-flush it's gotta run out of steam pretty soon at this rate in like a week or so the foliage mass will eclipse cambial-mass (or surface area, maybe that's a better way to quantify those) Bottom line is cambial-reserves only last so long and I did remove a good chunk of this guy's non-feeder root-mass which is usually a good 'storage reserve'!

 

[SU2]

Remember that your safety is of the utmost importance.

Thanks I do, used to be a wild maniac when younger but am very conservative in these things now hell I still climb w/ 2 hitches almost always (Ice Tail hitches I splice myself), use a "squeezer" (TreeSqueeze lanyard I made, only it's stronger than the Buck configuration ;D ), use binoc's in the odd cases I'm setting lines from the ground, always check walkie&whistle before ascent and double-check for 2 fig-8's and 2 prussiks before any ascent...see it as "if you get hurt you can't keep doing this" haha in fact it's affected general life/health I'm far more conscious about health/fitness now because of it, so damn glad I went for it now I just gotta find a good company had tried 'contract climbing' but the 2 local companies I climbed for both had massive problems I couldn't overlook so currently figuring out whether to try finding a crew for this summer, or going for license/insurance myself and continuing to work solo (I've got prior experience as a groundie so am not getting benefit "just from working w/ a Tree Co", nevermind that some groups just get it all wrong anyway lol like one of the Co's I walked away from in late '19 had the owner making me notch my cuts backwards like first make a straight-cut where the notch should be (though not as deep as a traditional back-cut would be) and then cut my wedge on the top, to essentially 'slow down' the log IE depending on middle-bark&stem tissue to tear during its fall as a form of cushioning/slowing, I gave up trying to convince him all the reasons that is moronic and did it his way whenever he was in-site which, thankfully, was less than like 1/3rd of the day (and he was 'competent party' for the job on-paper despite me leading that job in reality! ugh better times to come I'm sure )

 

[SU2]

DUDE!! As always, thanks a ton

Ok brotha. I can kinda answer all of this together. So here's the main issues/tips for these.

#1 they are the weakest tree ever when it comes to anything involving the roots. When collecting or making the first large reduction from a large nursery situation to a lower pot it is SUPER traumatic. You need to plan to have it in whatever it goes into for the next 5 years. I would make sure you see growth on every section of the tree before you start to work the top.

#2 DO NOT PRUNE IT - for at least 1 year totally leave it alone. You don't have to worry about internode length or branch selection bc it is a shrub and naturally grows dense and twiggy. Once it is established it is a weed and will be able to be our ed hard to induce all the growth you need. It also dies back constantly so it is better to leave a lot of branches in the fall as opposed to regular cleanup pruning like on other semi deciduous trees.

florida sun is serious and I recommend dappled light for the first year while it recovers. After it is established it will prefer full full sun. I prune them hard in the summer and remove all the old leaves in the spring as the new flowers and shoots are budding out.

low fert is fine when it has established.

lemme know if I missed something

#1 -- Thanks it's good to hear that said w/ confidence, could tell it was...something...about the roots but couldn't tell if it was permanent or @transplanting only.. Do they ever develop fine root-mats that look like most other trees? IF they do, which I'd imagine takes ages if so, at that point are they finally kinda resilient? (I guess I'm wondering if the root-frailty is more of a "they just tend to lack dense root-balls so shocks hit them way harder", or "they take 10X longer to get a normal, resilient root-mat but once it's there it's as-resilient as any other comparable-looking root-mat")

Also, 5yrs?! WOW!! Man I have it in a small container I couldn't fathom getting past 2yrs before the roots are encircling and it becomes a "lesser of two evils" ie:
1- re-/up-pot a root-bound Loro at 1.5yrs post-collection, early summer or following spring, or
2- let it wrap its roots back-into the root-mass, ensuring the inevitable mangling of the root-mass when you do actually go to re-pot...
Seems it'd be more a "roots/volume" threshold than one of time, though maybe for slow-growers it's different (obviously I've only killed these so just wanna glean whatever I can when I get a vet's ear )

And 'start working the top'.....TBH I'd pictured leaving the top virtually untouched until I had my dense root-mass (and hadn't thought beyond that but guess I would've thought "let it grow un-touched until you've grown a stable root-mass, re-/up-pot your good-root-mass Loro and, when growth resumes in-vigor, begin (slowly) to start working the top")

#2 -- Was totally planning that Re hands-off the top (even 2-buds/1-location would be retained as I'm only picturing "more solar-panels = more roots = sooner I can start seeing it take form & play w/ initial stylings!") for 1yr even if it "looked ready" because I wouldn't trust even a mid-summer flush of growth to be sufficiently hardened for winter, not going to experiment one bit w/ this specimen / will be as conservative as possible w/ it, however I'm glad you said "established" as that's still eluding me IE I'm uncertain what's most-important when saying it's 'established' is it time-in-container, growth while in that container, root-mass, general-vigor? All? I see how heat/intense sun keeps coming up as damaging, obviously not for mature but for transplants, so I've got it on bench on South edge of my yard along the wooded area so it gets indirect and the tiniest bit of dappling at some times (but 9/10 times it's just in pure shade, very few dots of light get through those trees!)

Would you say that, once established, that they "behave normally" or are they the type that will still not show damage quickly (ie broadleafs usually show their stress quickly, Junipers can be dead and look alive....Loro's don't seem like regular broadleafs in terms of speed-of-reaction to negative stimuli, that's of course in-addition to their hypersensitivity pre-establishment)

Thanks so much, you did cover it all, would love thoughts on how resilient one is if/when(if-possible!) one has developed a bona-fide "excellent root mat" but otherwise I think that's all (oh and especially Re the re-pot....I used sub-par substrate and not large enough a container, am already thinking "a gentle re-/up-pot in early March 2021 will help" and, while I understand they're sensitive, I'm still thinking "I'm precise&gentle enough to do this w/ virtually zero root-disturbance", am I just fooling myself are some roots really so sensitive that a slip-potting is considered drastic to an established specimen?) Even if it's yes, yes and YES IT'S ALWAYS SENSITIVE I just gotta know because I'd swear a gentle slip-pot is almost purely negligible but no way I'm gonna experiment on my Loro am gonna follow your path since you can obviously keep them alive ;D

 

[SU2]

Well, sad to report it but while still "growing vigorously" the growth is soft/droopy and seems of weak quality....one of the most-mature shoots, with probably 7 leaves, is already seeing its lowest-leaves discolor/shrivel a touch (maybe this is part&parcel for Loro-foliage, I know it changes color and all, but it's not "changing color from purple and looking healthy" it's just looking like a lil faded purple, camera could hardly capture it but I promise it's there on maybe 2-5% of the foliage, exclusively on the margins of the 'oldest' leafs which are <1mo old leafs)

Also, one of my lil shoots began sprouting a flower today Is that indicative of anything special w/ Loro's? W/ most things, they seem to like to flower when stressed or fearing-death and while I wish I could recall some link/url to base this on, but IIRC when a tree is at a certain level of stress it 'chooses' whether to direct efforts to saving itself, and begins vegetative-growth, or it's too-far-gone so it begins devoting remaining resources to, it hopes, get one last flowering session...was very upset to see the purty lil flower forming, will certainly be using my precision-shears to remove fruit/flower bodies the moment they arise as it (IME!) stimulates continued-growth whereas allowing-flowering can lead to it just making flowers then sitting there... w/ bougies/crapes I get far more growth this way, usually there's 1-2 more rounds of flowering after you remove some but you're still forcing growth/movement in the tree as it produces an extra set or two of flowers as you're clipping them!

Droopy growth as-of-today:


Closer-up:



~~~~~

The 1 reassuring thing, or 'potentially reassuring' thing is that the back-budding it'd started sprouting at the mid-trunk crotch and on all 3 largest upper limbs, all hardwood pop-through buds are still growing which makes me think/hope that's indicative of it intending vegetative growth, if it becomes a stubborn flowering-only specimen I doubt it'll survive.. Pic of new growth is dead-center of the photo:

5-6 hardwood buds visible ^, 2-3 in the central crotch, one on the outside-edge of the bottom/right-most limb in the photo, and another on the center-top/top-right limb (lower on that limb, on its left side closer down to its base than its top) This continued "viability of the edges" isn't hallmark of a specimen on its way out (not proof against it either of course but still!)

Never been so upset at myself for failing to properly pot something, would've been 2X the volume, larger particles and wooden or some insulated container not a plastic!

 

[Danteswake]

Bummer. I guess time will tell. Is it sitting next to an air conditioner?

 

[SU2]

Bummer. I guess time will tell. Is it sitting next to an air conditioner?

FWIW the air-conditioner-turbulence wasn't bad it would've been worse-off in that regard in a high-position on some of my benches!

So I'm hoping some of you guys can help me here I don't know how to interpret things IE whether this looks like it's going well or not because Ruby Loro's change leaf-color, that variable & my general unfamiliarity w/ the species has me uncertain if things are looking better-or-worse than they were....he's certainly 'active'!!
Full View:


But when looking at its oldest apical-tip, the most-lush area when I'd brought it home, it seems to be dying-out:

^but you can see it's 'both' changing-color and "visibly-dying-out" and, given Loro's unique vegetation, I can't tell if what's in my hand^ is a sign of death or a sign of foliage-maturation!

Also those buds that were popping-hardwood, they were from 3 sites two of which were mid-height and one which was almost as high as possible on this trunking, that high-bud was exciting (meant cambium life all the way up the trunk) but that high-bud went from cherry-red to nothing/vanished Top-trunk die-back is expected-enough I guess, although from the mid-trunk buds that popped, one is hardly an inch long and already has a leaf changing color:

^sorry for poor resolution but at dead-center you should be able to see a leaf that's already gone half-green from purple..

~~~~~~~


Thanks for any advice on my 'unicorn' here, am so damn fond of this specie and can't believe this ^ specimen is a >2yr, 2-step that was forgotten and then, luckily, got plucked randomly at just the right time-of-year I mean if this doesn't survive I wouldn't bother future collections unless there was at minimum 2+ Loro's to take!! Am also going to purchase some from a nursery, not only in case this doesn't make it (and not just because they're awesome to have!), but because I realized if/when ^this guy survives, I'll be far too wary to ever do anything to it! Need to get my hands on more Loro stock, get it vigorous/push it/maybe kill it so I know "the boundaries" for this specie!!

 

[Vin]

Sorry for the delayed response but @choppychoppy hit all the points spot on that I would have given. The only other issue is be careful with the water. Water sparingly. Good work on this one.

 

[SU2]

Sorry for the delayed response but @choppychoppy hit all the points spot on that I would have given. The only other issue is be careful with the water. Water sparingly. Good work on this one.

NP Can you elaborate, as much as you're willing, on that last bit of Water Sparingly?
This thread's Loro died, despite a 2yrs long, 2-step collection done as perfectly as I could've planned it Like Live Oaks, I now consider it something I'm only gonna possess if I buy specimen that are already potted-up / outta the earth since I just can't do that part myself. My plan, which I did to the last 2 Loro's I bought a few months ago (and are still doing well & flowering), and am about to do to the Live Oak I bought & trunk-chopped today, is:
- "slip-pot" the rootmass from solid container to root-maker containering, and
- cut-off the bottom ~10% of the rootmass it came with (if you're feeling bold!)
because that ^ should let me get into habit of just going to the roots every year and removing another 10% off the bottom, by year 4 or 5 when the top is done, the rootmass should be about done too!!! I figure with the Live Oaks that it's based on the tap-root but w/ Loro's, I dunno...what I DO know is that it's virtually guaranteed that, if I use a rootmaker for 6mo or a year, that I'll have FAR more feeders right beneath the trunk's base, allowing safe removals of moderate portions of the bottom & edges of such rootmasses!

Eager to hear your thoughts on their watering, I should mention that mine aren't just in "open" rootmakers, I wrapped shade-clothe around them so it'd insulate them w/o destroying the aerial-pruning mechanism! But, since they got their 10% bottom-of-roots cut off at purchase/slip-pot, the plan is to leave them til spring, trunk-chop, let the rebound growth start creating canopies & pushing rootgrowth, then when prepping for 2022's wake-up's I can do another "bottom 10-20% removal" of the rootmass.....from what I've seen these rootmaker containers are just a game-changer when it comes to rootplate development!!