Technical vs. artistic

[Dogestoevsky]

Would you say, as an artist and instructor, that anybody -who really wants- can reach the level of the Master (teacher) ? I mean, when Leonardo DeVinci was a young student, he made a 3/4 portrait that was so great (unique, & different), that his master (teacher) said Leonardo was already a far better artist than him. I think you can progress greatly by aquiring technics (with the desire as you say) but i don't think anybody can copy a DaVinci painting so perfectly that the experts can't make the difference ? What do you think ?

That’s a great question! We all start somewhere, and that level of skill / vision / interest varies widely. Picasso’s early work is a great example. At 11 his figure drawings were lively and somewhat proportional, though rough in the way we would expect from a child. But by 16 he produces an oil painting of a first communion with high representational accuracy.


What happened between these two images? His teachers and father (who was a career artist!) often remarked that the young Picasso possessed great talent for painting and drawing; so he was encouraged and educated by adults who worked at a high level. But I think more importantly in those five years he just painted and drew so much (under good guidance) that his technical ability exploded.

All that said, in terms of its conceptual merits the first communion is not a particularly interesting work. It it reflects a young person’s interest in the trade, and rapid development in representational drawing.

I have students who excel at drawing from life, but haven’t found a reason to care. Either they eventually discover a reason, they manufacture reasons until their interest is piqued, or they discover they just don’t need to draw and move on with their lives.

To answer your question about a student who badly wants to be an artist but doesn’t possess much ability, their success or failure will depend largely on how much they practice their technical and conceptual skills. Two very different things there… and eventually the conceptual must supersede the technical for an artist to maintain interest and growth.

sorry for the wall of text! Cheers
Oh! And to your question about copying a Leonardo— it would be recognized as a copy forensically, but on the surface could look very much like the original if great care is taken. We have students copy things all the time, it’s a great exercise.

 

[ShadyStump]

My oldest daughter is autistic.
Contrary to the popular image of the autistic savant, most autists, like most people in general, have no particular talent for anything in particular. My 13 year old is no exception.

However, our family has always kept a large supply of arts and crafts materials on hand because it's generally a safe and healthy activity for kids that requires little monitoring, and she enjoys coloring like any child does.
It started years ago one Easter when their mother was working on dinner, and I was trying to help, but the kids were restless. I quickly grabbed a bowl and cup, and used them to help me stencil a couple Easter bunny and Easter egg pictures for the kids to color.
Well, they filled them in in about the time it took me to put the cup and bowl away, and were asking for more pictures. I told them they could make more themselves by tracing the ones they had. I quick demo, and second daughter caught on and was working on making more pictures. This was too slow a process for an autist, though. Before I realized, my oldest had retrieved the very same cup and bowl she'd seen me use before, and was attempting to duplicate my work.

She has no real talent for drawing, and her first attempts were dreadful, but it kept them out of our hair while we finished dinner. Flash forward 5 years, and she's becoming quite good at drawing. It went from Easter eggs to, "I want to color a cat dragon," but there were no such pictures available, so she made one. It was awful, and she knew it, so she made another, and another, until she felt she had it right.

She's done similar with writing. She started with no concept of story telling- no beginning, no middle, no end, just words about there was a thing- and then one day was writing My Little Pony fanfics to rival the real thing.

No artistic talent, but she wanted something, knew it was possible to create it, and set about doing so. She learned the skills over time, and is now almost able to match my older sister who's styled herself a talented artist for 20 years.
I have watch a stead progression from having no concept of a thing, to early bumbling attempts, to middling ability, to skilled artist over the years.
She does the same thing with many other skills. I showed her how to stitch up a tattered toy once, then the next time she brought me something to sew I didn't have time, so she mimicked what she remembered, and can mend her own things now. She learns these things the same way all children do, but because she lacks the level of social inhibition others do, she has no concept that she shouldn't be able to do it herself.

I have a thousand examples from just her. More from my other kids, and from my students at work.
Very few people have an innate talent for anything. I certainly don't! But we learn them by experimenting, challenging ourselves, and each other.

Since we're in "wall of text" mode now.

 

[ShadyStump]

Speaking of drawing, anyone know a decent bonsai coloring book? Seems that may not exist yet, though it feels like it should.

 

[Katie0317]

@moke You clearly have more creative ability than you're acknowledging. Am basing this on the extraordinary concrete work you've done. Really beautiful and original. Finding people doing original work is unusual. Most people just copy.

@HorseloverFat I like your words too. They smile. I kept up with your vacation thread and you have so much joy, it kind of pours out.

@TinyArt I think there'a a creative person inside you trying to figure out how to get out. A way to express itself when you're feeling (forget your southern expression) but something like 'plum worn out' some days.

@ShadyStump You're dealing with so many circumstances that are tough. If you're thinking about bonsai coloring books (good idea btw) it tells me something.

Please All take a look at IIUSTRATED JOURNALING on Google. Click images only. Consider trying this with bonsai or anything at all. Also, no money required to start. A wire bound journal, pencils, and a 'kneaded eraser'...Pack of 2 at Michals is 2.99. You'll want sharpies and colored pencils down the road...but anything you have at home is enough to start with.

Create your own bonsai journal or journey, coloring book or what you think is a mundane day. Try it and I promise you'll get better at drawing and pretty soon you're creating. There are no rules. I've collaged in mine for years and everything is game for getting glued in with those cheapie glue sticks.

You may think 'I can't do that' but yes you can. I'm certain of it. @ShadyStump your girls can do them with you. Give it a try at least and see if you don't enjoy it and improve by leaps and bounds. Don't know where to start? Copy something if you want, draw something in your house or through a window...From your imagination, a dream. a wishlist, a happy memorie...There are no rules.

There's clearly a need here for people struggling with their own creative goals and this really is a good solution. Nobody's judging. It's cheap, fun and therapeutic.

If it's not fun, try something different, glue something over your mistakes...(Mistakes are sometimes the best part because they can lead to something different and more fun.) Don't feel like drawing? Try a collage...Or writing. Use colored pens, pencils, crayons...Anything will work. Have fun with it!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Everyone has artistic/esthetic functions, so this is a moot statement.
I'm sure everyone can learn this, to a certain level.

Only to one ignorant of truth/considering self all knowing, all seeing of others not so perfect as self.

 

[ShadyStump]

Only to one ignorant of truth/considering self all knowing, all seeing of others not so perfect as self.

OH, BE NICE.

As the man said in the movie, "creation is an act of shear will."
Now, just like the movie, we can't always predict what will come of it, but we can always assume it will be spectacular.

A simple test of your creativity:
Are you bored while you're doing it?
If so, you're not being creative.
If not, then you must be doing something spectacular. The nature of the spectacle may be debatable, but you've made a spectacle for sure, and if, like I've heard @HorseloverFat say before, you've done it with intent then you've been purposefully creative.

What remains is the rest of the world's judgement on the value of your creativity, which I personally hold in relatively low esteem. Yes, some people come by aesthetic sense naturally, but no one one is without it, and what meager skills you have can be built on. That process may lead you in a different direction than you suspected- much like many of us have turned to pottery while exploring bonsai, or vis versa- but you'll build on your creative skills, and they will be applicable to your goals.

 

[moke]

@moke You clearly have more creative ability than you're acknowledging. Am basing this on the extraordinary concrete work you've done. Really beautiful and original. Finding people doing original work is unusual. Most people just copy.

Thanks Katie, I am a multidisciplinary artist it’s what makes me get out of bed every day. This includes bonsai it’s very much an art form and an outlet for creative energy and OCD focus for me. I love sculpting, painting, drawing stained glass and silversmithing but bonsai has become my favorite. The thing with bonsai is it’s a much slower time consuming art form than the others to get a finished piece, you could just throw a tree in a pot and call it a bonsai, but there is more to it then that, so much more. Perhaps that’s why I’m so captivated by creating bonsai is the timescale? I can make a painting or a sculpture in a day bonsai takes me years and still are never finished.

 

[Potawatomi13]

takes me years and still are never finished.

Just one reason it is not "art". May take artistic mind/creativity but is never finished until dead. Many natural trees even dead are master creator Gods true artwork. His deserve term living art. Not ours.

 

[sorce]

Since we're in "wall of text" mode now.

Plus....pics or it didn't happen!

bonsai coloring book?

Summer edition comes with a green and brown crayon.
Winter, grey and brown.
Fall and spring have a full set!

Sorce

 

[doctorater]

I feel there are varying levels or artistic ability that are not tied to the technical ability of creating.

Like, I've been drawing celtic knots for about 20+ years and I think I'm actually good at that specific craft but I am by no means good at drawing. I can not draw a good still life, a landscape or people with realistic proportions. I don't have the natural ability to see something and draw it, I could get better, if I dedicated myself but, I would not be satisfied with the results. My artistic and technical ability are matched when it comes to drawing knots but all out of whack drawing almost anything else. With knotwork I don't know where it comes from, I don't start with a plan, I start on a grid and put pencil to paper. i know basic shapes/patterns and just puzzle them together until a larger pattern emerges and I find something I find aesthetically pleasing. Then, I can go back and check if it is technically correct with no closed patterns and proper interlacing. From there it's problem solving time correcting mistakes. It's like I'm taking my logical thought process and applying it to art.

I also played guitar and bass for many years, I got to a point where I plateaued, I was not physically able to play at the level I wanted and could not keep up with my peers. I couldn't play what I heard in my head. It's incredibly frustrating to have an artistic vision that you can not execute. I was better than a lot of people I knew but, the people I played with just had more natural talent than I had. I stopped playing as much as I had previously and eventually I stopped playing when I injured my hand working as a driller. I feel I was a better musician artistically than I was technically.

I think I have an opportunity here with bonsai. I don't know the last time I wasn't caring for some sort of plant. I remember when I was living with my grandparents in Phoenix when I was about 3-5 and we were just spittin watermelon seeds on the lawn. They sprouted before my grandpa mowed and I noticed them, I got him to mow around them until we scooped them up and moved them to a flower bed my grandma had. I was eating terrible watermelons I grew as a little kid. I've been helping my family with plants and garden stuff since then. First thing I did when I moved out of my parents house was buy an ivy and some palm tree things for my efficiency. I had that ivy for almost 15 years and the palm things died that winter. I've kept plants ever since. I also consider myself an artist, I just don't know yet if my artistic vision/ability and my ability to preform the technical aspects of bonsai will align cohesively. I also have to deal with an inhospitable environment that isn't conducive to established bonsai practices.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, conveying my thoughts through written word has never been my forte. I think faster than I can talk, I talk faster than I can write, when I write I'm already 10 steps ahead of myself by the time I get a sentence out.

And I'm sorry for that wall of text, I guess that was a lot of words to say that you can work at developing your artistic skills but to truly excel it takes a natural vision to begin with then a physical capability to preform the technical aspect as well. Some people just don't have rhythm and will never be great dancers no matter how hard they try, other people feel the beat but don't explore that aspect of themselves while others are just born to dance.

That short autobiography of your artistic life was a wonderful read. Thanks for taking the time to share it here.