Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
Well I don't think they're close enough to the light. 110W isn't as much as you're thinking.
Tall jungle tree type bonsai inspiration (help)
- Thread starter Disgruntled_ficus
- Start date
D
Deleted member 18707
Guest
I would be quite interested in some actual peer-reviewed horticultural science on what conditions plants thrive in. It'd put to bed a lot of theories and guesses based on one person's experience. My personal experience was that I had big problems w/ mold when I did not have fresh air while trying to grow in a glass enclosure. No idea if there's something in particular about fresh air that prevents mold, or if air movement alone would be sufficient. I also know that when I moved from CFL to T5HO (and 10x the light reaching the surface of my leaves) my trees grew much more vigorously. But I don't think there is much science around exactly how much light is either sufficient or optimal.Ive taken a few graduate level classes in plant physiology. If you want to elaborate on fresh vs. stale air and, in particular, why its such a problem for ficus and not other sensitive tropical plants with less efficient photosystems (and more efficient) im all ears
BrianBay9
Masterpiece
I use a 6 x 6 x 6 ft grow tent, T5's and a fan. Temp at about 80 F, humidity from 50 - 80% depending on watering. I wish I could get vigorous growth. The best I'm doing is maintaining status quo in the winter, and growing the tropical outside in the summer. The exceptions are Schefflera and Brazilian raintree, which do put out quite a bit of growth in this set-up. Ficus microcarpa, F. rubiginosa, red ficus, do "OK", but not nearly good enough for major development.
I'm pretty new at indoor growing though, and have refused so far to spend thousands on lights.
Brian
I'm pretty new at indoor growing though, and have refused so far to spend thousands on lights.
Brian
Eric Group
Masterpiece
I think the OP might be missing the point of what others are trying to say here. Ficus is just not the best subject for Bonsai in Indiana. Period. Can you "keep them alive indoors"- sure! But they will never thrive inside like they will when kept in tropical locales OUTSIDE. PERIOD.i never get the fascination with people in cold climates wanting tog row tropicals! It is a square peg in a round hole IMO.
You should try growing some cold hardy stuff outside- Amur Maple, Japanese quince... That kind of stuff.
To get anything even moderately resembling the trees you posted pics of from what you have it will not take years, it will take DECADES, man DECADES and everyone here can tell you chances are the trees will be dead long before you see your first substantial aerial root or before you see a trunk half the size of the ones in the pics. The Benjamina do not make the best Bonsai in my experience, at weak and susceptible to all sorts of bugs and disease, even more so in the variegated ones. The people who have told you this speak from EXPERIENCE not from theory, which is what you are using to argue with them. If you listened you might realize they are trying to help you, not fight with you.
You should try growing some cold hardy stuff outside- Amur Maple, Japanese quince... That kind of stuff.
To get anything even moderately resembling the trees you posted pics of from what you have it will not take years, it will take DECADES, man DECADES and everyone here can tell you chances are the trees will be dead long before you see your first substantial aerial root or before you see a trunk half the size of the ones in the pics. The Benjamina do not make the best Bonsai in my experience, at weak and susceptible to all sorts of bugs and disease, even more so in the variegated ones. The people who have told you this speak from EXPERIENCE not from theory, which is what you are using to argue with them. If you listened you might realize they are trying to help you, not fight with you.
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
Makes you wonder why he's even asking for help . . .
Anyway . . . THE expert on figs in the northland is Jerry Meislik. So ask him at http://www.bonsaihunk.us/
Anyway . . . THE expert on figs in the northland is Jerry Meislik. So ask him at http://www.bonsaihunk.us/
Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
For some reason OP thinks his setup is different from my old ones and that his is going to excel at everything. Why does he need our help then?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
The best way to get that much growth on a ficus in Indiana is to put it outside in full sun all summer. Terrarium growing tropical bonsai is very very difficult to do, especially if you're trying to get more substantial pad and trunk development. As for the "bonsai" in the thread you linked, it's really not. It's a potted ficus, but it ain't really a bonsai.
MidMichBonsai
Shohin
I am in the process of moving (read getting rid of) my tropical collection for all of the reasons listed above. I used to fight this idea but I'm coming around to it having had to fight many diseases. Yes, you can keep trees alive out of climate. You CAN almost create an artificial environment that reflects their natural habitat. If you want to go through the time, effort, money and headache to do so, HAVE AT IT. After all, it's your time, effort, money and headache.
That being said, I have decided that my time, effort, money and headache will, by the end of 20-30 years, have been better spent working with species that are hardy in my zone. In the end, I will have a higher quality collection, have enjoyed the journey more, and have fewer grey hairs (though my father's head tells me I will be bald anyway). I practice bonsai to enjoy it, not to prove everyone wrong.
That being said, I have decided that my time, effort, money and headache will, by the end of 20-30 years, have been better spent working with species that are hardy in my zone. In the end, I will have a higher quality collection, have enjoyed the journey more, and have fewer grey hairs (though my father's head tells me I will be bald anyway)
. I practice bonsai to enjoy it, not to prove everyone wrong.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Growing bonsai indoors is the hardest way to do bonsai. No room for error, lots of complications and technical considerations. All of that for not much return. The vast majority of indoor trees die. A fraction limps on for a time looking really awful health and design-wise and miniscule proportion thrive and develop. The last group is usually supplemented with thousand dollar lighting set ups and/or some time outside in full summer sun.I am in the process of moving (read getting rid of) my tropical collection for all of the reasons listed above. I used to fight this idea but I'm coming around to it having had to fight many diseases. Yes, you can keep trees alive out of climate. You CAN almost create an artificial environment that reflects their natural habitat. If you want to go through the time, effort, money and headache to do so, HAVE AT IT. After all, it's your time, effort, money and headache.
That being said, I have decided that my time, effort, money and headache will, by the end of 20-30 years, have been better spent working with species that are hardy in my zone. In the end, I will have a higher quality collection, have enjoyed the journey more, and have fewer grey hairs (though my father's head tells me I will be bald anyway)
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
Im done with this forum.
If you guys want to go tell thousands and thousands of people your wisdom on keeping tropical plants in terrariums Ill be happy to share some forums with you.
Sensitive research is often done in growth chambers and greenhouses because you can control the environment. An intelligently managed terrarium is no different. In short, you guys dont have a clue.
If you guys want to go tell thousands and thousands of people your wisdom on keeping tropical plants in terrariums Ill be happy to share some forums with you.
Sensitive research is often done in growth chambers and greenhouses because you can control the environment. An intelligently managed terrarium is no different. In short, you guys dont have a clue.
Last edited:
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
Ill stay here and argue with anyone that wants to try to explain their harebrained reasoning 
Ill respond to anybody that can string two sentences together beyond "nuh uh"
Ill respond to anybody that can string two sentences together beyond "nuh uh"
lordy
Omono
So you came here looking for opinions on what kind of tree is the "offspring" of the two you pictured. You are clearly a terrarium lover. This forum is populated by bonsai lovers. These people have given their opinions and you have a choice: take the advice of bonsai people regarding the likelihood of long-term success of a tree in a terrarium, something that you will likely argue due to your affinity for terrarium culture and forum members who say it works, or you will accept the opinions of knowledgeable bonsai hobbyists and professionals who have both real experience and knowledge of what they speak, no differently than those on the terrarium forums. It doesnt need to come down to an emotional outburst, it simply comes down to accepting or rejecting the positions of those to whom you posed the original question.
Put a different way, "like it or lump it."
I trust that counts as at least two sentences.
Put a different way, "like it or lump it."
I trust that counts as at least two sentences.
Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
Who would've thought that the guy who got upset about the forum leaf would be leaving so soon?
You're not going to grow a tree like those in the pictures in your setup in any decent amount of years. Your light is too high and the "chamber" is too small. Let alone those are benjamina, not the best bonsai subjects. But hey, you're the upset noob. What do we know?
You're not going to grow a tree like those in the pictures in your setup in any decent amount of years. Your light is too high and the "chamber" is too small. Let alone those are benjamina, not the best bonsai subjects. But hey, you're the upset noob. What do we know?
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
nuh uh
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
You have a habit of simplifying and twisting things to fit your argument... I suggested the forum leaf be changed - I wasnt upset. The tree on the left is a benjamina var midnight. Im well aware that bonsai take years. Do you criticize everyone that hasn't purchased a fully styled tree? You seem to have this opinion that I expect this to happen overnight. I think your negativity says a lot more about you than me
in short, nuh uh
Anyone want to have a debate about the actual facts or do you guys just like to be negative without any legs to stand on? i.e., why is the light to high (earlier it wasn't as much as I thought it was)? why is the chamber too small (I thought bonsai came in different sizes, but im glad you've entered into territory regarding the original topic)?
Last edited:
Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
Why don't you just take your terrarium plants to a terrarium forum since you're unwilling to take any of our advice?
Your light is actually too high looking at the pictures again. CFL penetration isn't as strong as T5 or LED lighting.
Your light is actually too high looking at the pictures again. CFL penetration isn't as strong as T5 or LED lighting.
Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
Your terrarium is too small for the style trees you're aiming for. You may have a smaller leaf variety benjamina, but the leaves will not reduce to that size to get that look. You're going to succeed at getting aerial roots to grow, but will then have issues with swelling and reverse taper later down the road. Does that help?
D
Deleted member 18707
Guest
I believe the plants are too far away from the light based on my understanding that in full sun, a plant will receive upwards of 100,000 lumens per square meter, or about 64 lumens per square inch. If you have a CFL setup that outputs 7,200 lumens, the amount that actually hits the surface of your plants will be less than that based on the inverse-square law, which describes how the intensity of light per square inch decreases the farther away you are from the light source.
My math is going to get fuzzy here because I have no idea what your specific setup is, but assuming the total output of your bulb is 7200 lumens, and the total surface area of the terrarium is (6 sides * 324 sq inches per side) = 1944 sq inches, the plant is only getting a maximum ~4 lumens per square inch. But I believe this was covered at a basic level in another one of your threads.
EDIT: A surefire way to prove I am full of shit about your lighting setup is to go buy a cheap lux meter and measure the lux (lumens per sq meter) at the level of leaves in your terrarium. I have a similar meter and have taken measurements in my own setup in the past.
Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
I grow with lights almost 10 times as powerful as yours and I'm not even totally successful at getting pads like that on my trees.
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
I think you are right that the light is lowish, but thats why I have extended the photoperiod. In addition, my bulbs are outputting most of their lumens in the photosynthetically active regions of the spectrum (PARadiation). So in order to get the same amount of PAR I dont need as much lux. In the tropics daylength stays near 12 hours. I am at 16 hours on mine and could increase. If you were able to get something like a cumulative distribution function of the PAR I would bet that my setup is getting the same amount of PAR as a tree that is shaded for part of the day.
The inverse square law is only applicable if the light is allowed to radiate in all directions in 3 dimensions. Here I have reflectors which are focusing the light down onto the footprint of my tank.
Good post.
Here is a radiation insensity ~histogram of sun light
Here is a ~PAR chart by rate of photosynthesis by w
Finally here is what a typical CFL 5000K spectrum may look like
edit: nvm still looking for an actual CFL spectrum chart. They are known to have narrow output ranges.
k here we go.. note the steep peaks in the most active parts of PAR
Starting to see the efficiencies of bulbs?
Thats actually a 5500K bulb which may explain the peak in the green there..
Last edited:
