subdtrate

bleumeon said:
I don't really mix my soil in precise ratios any more. I just toss together what I have on hand. Usually some recycled re-sifed old soil plus fresh scoria, pumice, bark or napa. I recently found some zeolite too which has high CEC and can work in place or with lava. In a climate like mine where the growing season is hot and dry I think using slightly smaller particles and more organic is better. If I were to use quarter inch sized particles and 1/3 or less organic I'd have to water like crazy in the summer. My sieve is a 3mm sieve or about 1/8th inch.

For trees in the developing stage I think as long as you have a well aerated mix with proper watering your tree will do fine. Maybe in refinement especially when trying to compact the root system into a tiny pot soil composition and size is more important. I'm lucky to have local pre-sifted scoria sources at cheap prices and other components like pumice and bark can be found easily in my area. I use drystall for my pumice, some think its too small but I and many others use it with good results.

You can make a decent mix out of perlite, bark, and diatomaceous earth all of which can be found and had for cheap. Just make sure you sift out the fines. Lava and pumice are good because they will retain a lot of air and won't be compacted or crushed like some organic components. I think perlite can act as a cheap substitute for pumice or lava but its very light and can be washed away during watering. Regardless of what mix you use make sure you water appropriately and pot your trees correctly. Even with a well draining mix if you over-pot your tree the roots will stay too wet.
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I have heard of people using kitty litter, but something just sounds wrong about it, and I can smell it a mile a way.
 
whomever said:
kitty litter
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Note who it using it and where they are from. The kitty litter in the US is different than what is available in Europe. The stuff available in Europe appears to be a high fired clay. The stuff that you get in the US is a soft clay that turns to mush when wet. This goes for some of the floor dry products that are out there as well. Some are good some turn to mush.
 
Is there a cheaper way to test than buying $10 bages, after a few bsnes of irgsnic and inorgsnic material it starts to get pricy.
Roughly how few trees would one need for making your substrate be finachaly better than buying bag mix?
 
bleumeon said:
I don't really mix my soil in precise ratios any more. I just toss together what I have on hand. Usually some recycled re-sifed old soil plus fresh scoria, pumice, bark or napa. I recently found some zeolite too which has high CEC and can work in place or with lava. In a climate like mine where the growing season is hot and dry I think using slightly smaller particles and more organic is better. If I were to use quarter inch sized particles and 1/3 or less organic I'd have to water like crazy in the summer. My sieve is a 3mm sieve or about 1/8th inch.

For trees in the developing stage I think as long as you have a well aerated mix with proper watering your tree will do fine. Maybe in refinement especially when trying to compact the root system into a tiny pot soil composition and size is more important. I'm lucky to have local pre-sifted scoria sources at cheap prices and other components like pumice and bark can be found easily in my area. I use drystall for my pumice, some think its too small but I and many others use it with good results.

You can make a decent mix out of perlite, bark, and diatomaceous earth all of which can be found and had for cheap. Just make sure you sift out the fines. Lava and pumice are good because they will retain a lot of air and won't be compacted or crushed like some organic components. I think perlite can act as a cheap substitute for pumice or lava but its very light and can be washed away during watering. Regardless of what mix you use make sure you water appropriately and pot your trees correctly. Even with a well draining mix if you over-pot your tree the roots will stay too wet.
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Will food grade diatamayios earth work or does it need to be non food grade?
 
I see you're in Austin. The Austin Bonsai Society is a very good organization with some great people. Suggest you get involved with them. Also, do try and make the state convention in Dallas this April. There are some great artists who'll be in town - Bjorn Bjorholm, Juan Andrade and Daisaku Nomoto. It's a great opportunity to build some skills, acquire some quality material and buy soil components from folks who grow bonsai in your area. Then you don't have to guess so much.

Scott
 
whomever said:
Will food grade diatamayios earth work or does it need to be non food grade?
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By diatomaceous earth you want to find larger firm particles, not the powder. Also plants do not care if it's food grade or not. Food grade just indicates it's safe for human consumption.

I and many others on here use Napa floor dry, item #8822 I think. People in the UK and Europe have some brands of kitty litter that uses larger particles of diatomaceous earth that will work. The kitty litter in the US will just turn into mush when wet.
 
bleumeon said:
By diatomaceous earth you want to find larger firm particles, not the powder. Also plants do not care if it's food grade or not. Food grade just indicates it's safe for human consumption.

I and many others on here use Napa floor dry, item #8822 I think. People in the UK and Europe have some brands of kitty litter that uses larger particles of diatomaceous earth that will work. The kitty litter in the US will just turn into mush when wet.
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Thank, I have only seen diatamayios death in powder form and thought I sjold ask
 
whomever said:
Thank, I have only seen diatamayios death in powder form and thought I sjold ask
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If you can find pumice and lava they work great. Akadama is expensive and is not necessary in my opinion.

You can find lava in the 3/16 inch + size on eBay reasonably priced but shipping is always a little pricey. Finding local sources is always better and usually cheaper. Scott recommended that you go to a local show to seek material and information. I think that's a good idea and club members should have information on what works well in your climate.

Also premixed soil is expensive. Just buy the components and sift and mix as needed. You will save money and if you plan to do bonsai for the long run it will be worth it. I spend about $15 for 2 gallons of presifted scoria, another $15 for a bag of drystall, I think $10 for a large bag of diatomaceous earth (Napa), and bark can be easily found for cheap. The initial expense plus sifter might run in total in the $50-60 range but then you have soil to last you for years, of course depending on how many trees you have.

If you just getting into bonsai and just want to try growing a few things I think perlite, diatomaceous earth, and bark is good enough and will work well. Just remember to sift out small particles and aim to have everything in the 3/16 inch+ range.
 
bleumeon said:
If you can find pumice and lava they work great. Akadama is expensive and is not necessary in my opinion.

You can find lava in the 3/16 inch + size on eBay reasonably priced but shipping is always a little pricey. Finding local sources is always better and usually cheaper. Scott recommended that you go to a local show to seek material and information. I think that's a good idea and club members should have information on what works well in your climate.

Also premixed soil is expensive. Just buy the components and sift and mix as needed. You will save money and if you plan to do bonsai for the long run it will be worth it. I spend about $15 for 2 gallons of presifted scoria, another $15 for a bag of drystall, I think $10 for a large bag of diatomaceous earth (Napa), and bark can be easily found for cheap. The initial expense plus sifter might run in total in the $50-60 range but then you have soil to last you for years, of course depending on how many trees you have.

If you just getting into bonsai and just want to try growing a few things I think perlite, diatomaceous earth, and bark is good enough and will work well. Just remember to sift out small particles and aim to have everything in the 3/16 inch+ range.
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Trying to find DE on Amazon but not having much luck the bagged stuff appears to be powder.
 
Couldn't you use any spill absorbsnt granules then? Or others could turn to mush when wet?
 
whomever said:
Couldn't you use any spill absorbsnt granules then? Or others could turn to mush when wet?
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Generally oil/spill adsorbants are made from diatomaceous earth but they vary a lot between brand. Some people have poor luck with the diatomaceous earth turning to mush. Generally napa #8822 floor dry, at least in my experience holds its shape over the years and is cheap to replace.
 
Also sifting soil is a good time to contemplate things. I spent 4 hours yesterday sifting soil and ended out With just 10 gallons, I need about another 150 gallons at least o_O
Spring will be here soon! 20170105_073429.jpg
Aaron
 
Here is what you want:
https://store.bonsaitonight.com/collections/all/products/clay-king

The best pre mixed Bonsai soil available at probably the best price (or close to it) you can find it for in the US... he also sells components- pumice, Akadama...

This is for BONSAI TREES, not trees in training, right? IOW, established bonsai in Bonsai trays, not trees in nursery pots you want to grow out... because if you are still growing them out, they need to be in large pots with regular old nursery soil... no need to drop $40 for a couple gallons of soil when all you should be using is good old fashioned dirt! Large pots with potting soil or ground growth yields big trunks... coarse bonsai mix in small trays yields dense compact root systems and less/ slower/ smaller growth.
That should be nearly the last step in the training process, not the first! I think too often people new to bonsai with young trees that need lots of growth dump them into bonsai pots with bonsai soil, and the trees suffer, die or just flat out stop growing when growth is exactly what they needed! I have been guilty of it for years. Still do it sometimes when I get too frogy... or when I have small trees I want to KEEP REALLY SMALL, like mame sized...
 
Eric Group said:
Here is what you want:
https://store.bonsaitonight.com/collections/all/products/clay-king

The best pre mixed Bonsai soil available at probably the best price (or close to it) you can find it for in the US... he also sells components- pumice, Akadama...

This is for BONSAI TREES, not trees in training, right? IOW, established bonsai in Bonsai trays, not trees in nursery pots you want to grow out... because if you are still growing them out, they need to be in large pots with regular old nursery soil... no need to drop $40 for a couple gallons of soil when all you should be using is good old fashioned dirt! Large pots with potting soil or ground growth yields big trunks... coarse bonsai mix in small trays yields dense compact root systems and less/ slower/ smaller growth.
That should be nearly the last step in the training process, not the first! I think too often people new to bonsai with young trees that need lots of growth dump them into bonsai pots with bonsai soil, and the trees suffer, die or just flat out stop growing when growth is exactly what they needed! I have been guilty of it for years. Still do it sometimes when I get too frogy... or when I have small trees I want to KEEP REALLY SMALL, like mame sized...
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They're still growing in nursery soil could be a little froggy. its a year old juniper .
I am not to sure at what pont to repot.
 
whomever said:
They're still growing in nursery soil could be a little froggy. its a year old juniper .
I am not to sure at what pont to repot.
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Depends on the size tree you want to have. Do you want it to be a larger, old looking Bonsai tree, or do you want it to look like a little juniper cutting dropped in a bonsai pot?
 
Do you consider ~2' larger?
I read on another site that if you out a tile under the roots it would help grow a thicker trunk and that the sooner you repotted a pre-bondai the better the bonsai would b because the roots and trunvk would have more time to train but said nothing about how young would be too young.
 
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