Structural Pruning of Japanese Maples

Ehm.. in summer the plant is active, and thus able to seal wounds quickly. In winter, when the plant is dormant, it will not fix fresh wounds till spring. So no, in summer wounds are closed more easily than in winter.
You are talking about small wounds, i guess?, while i have in mind larger cuts from trunk chop, something of 4 to 5 or even more centimeters in diameter. Wounds of that size won't get closed during one summer/fall: at least 4 or 5 seasons are needed for that size of wound to completely seal, if you let your tree growing with no pruning at all. With pruning it will take much longer, i guess 10 + years? So you will get an open wound attracted by pests and diseases. While during winter there is no danger of any diseases, bugs, and wood will have time to dry out before growing season.
I guess that must be a main reason why experts recommend bigger cuts to be done during winter or when a tree is dormant, while smaller ones are left for late spring till middle summer.
Also when you do a big trunk chop, with no branches left on the trunk, the wound left behind wont even start healing before first branch would appear. So you can expect some dieback anyway.
 
But if you do a trunk chop in the middle of growing season isn't there a high risk that you get your fresh wound diseased? Same question goes for maple's "bleeding": sure it won't damage your tree, but wouldn't sap from a maple attract pets and diseases?
Isn't it safer to do a trunk chop at the end of winter or maybe even at the end of fall? (I have in mind real trunk chop, when no branches, or almost no branches, are left, only trunk.)
No.
 
Ok ok, lets say i believe you. :p. Maybe it is my rusty English or we understand the word "trunk chop" on a different ways. I would never do this 1541976483311.jpg kind of trunk chop on summer, when most part of the tree has been cut down. (more then 90% of a tree). As you can see the big cut (over 10 cm in diameter) won't heal/seal at all first growing season. After some small dieaback on a top of the tree, further cuttings will be made next winter to shape the trunk with the top branch.
 
Ok ok, lets say i believe you. :p. Maybe it is my rusty English or we understand the word "trunk chop" on a different ways. I would never do this View attachment 217097 kind of trunk chop on summer, when most part of the tree has been cut down. (more then 90% of a tree). As you can see the big cut (over 10 cm in diameter) won't heal/seal at all first growing season. After some small dieaback on a top of the tree, further cuttings will be made next winter to shape the trunk with the top branch.
We understand the words “trunk chop” exactly the same, except that this (and much larger) is the type of chop I make during the growing season, because through experimenting and experience, that is when I get the best results: fastest healing, least dieback. I don’t know any other way to express this.
 
Thanks for clearing it for me, @peter Van Fleet and @Osoyoung. I think i get it now :)
I apologize for being such a grouchy person, i just want to make things clear before i do any kind of heavy intervention on my trees. Thanks again.
 
We understand the words “trunk chop” exactly the same, except that this (and much larger) is the type of chop I make during the growing season, because through experimenting and experience, that is when I get the best results: fastest healing, least dieback. I don’t know any other way to express this.
Would you need to wait until the first flush of growth has hardened off? Or can it be done when you notice the first flush of growth is starting to conk out?
 
i just want to make things clear before i do any kind of heavy intervention on my trees. Thanks again.
It’s also important to have things clear before doing “any kind of heavy intervention” on these threads. Sometimes folks show up here and offer advice based on no actual experience, which dilutes the proper teaching with bad. We each take on a level of responsibility when advising here and need to realize that someone, maybe years from now, will show up, read the wrong post, charge down the wrong path, and kill a tree.

@dcw I make trunk chops when the new foliage starts growing, through when the first flush is hardening off.

This was a little early for this trident maple, end of February, about 2 weeks before they start growing, but I also left good shoots on either side of the small chop, which minimizes dieback.
AB6F3874-31E3-4B44-BAF3-369DFAC8A5A8.jpeg4A9F567D-5329-4679-9CA2-C0FCA792BB10.jpeg

Another trident on the early side March 2, but also left good shoots on both sides of the chop, and it is healing nicely.
07201AA4-8D0B-480A-B910-B9907B74E9F0.jpeg79AE87BF-DE65-4D67-8EE4-E0A36839B4F9.jpeg

This was mid-May on an Ume, just as growth was hardening off. It put out another 6’ of new growth this year.
58D417AD-79F6-4BD9-8957-0D06B83FDF95.jpeg4AF88535-35DB-419B-9B64-9638A1C01344.jpeg

Here is late July on a hackberry. It also grew another 6’ after chopping.
994152EF-9648-4F1E-AF43-A691058A6DDD.jpeg5EBF7E70-48DD-4D87-AEE8-3EA13F46508A.jpeg

And Mid-August on the same trident maple as above. This scar took 4 years to close completely.
F3FDE91A-8869-496D-9362-A66227061C3A.jpeg5D57303C-18E5-486E-ABBC-029632D38549.jpeg
 
It’s also important to have things clear before doing “any kind of heavy intervention” on these threads. Sometimes folks show up here and offer advice based on no actual experience, which dilutes the proper teaching with bad. We each take on a level of responsibility when advising here and need to realize that someone, maybe years from now, will show up, read the wrong post, charge down the wrong path, and kill a tree.

If someone is lazy or stupid enough to do wrong things on/with his/her tree after reading only one "misleading" post, while completely ignoring other posts ...
Anyway on this forum and from other bonsaist i can read and hear some sfuf about winter trunk chop and i also have some successful experience with late winter trunk chopping, so i don't see a problem here. It is possible and results are good enough, i didn't say anything wrong here. You can only blame me for expressing my doubts about summer trunk choping, which i have zero experience with.
 
Edit: For example, many people on this forum recommend the usage of pruning sealers on fresh cuts, but my several years experiences with pruning sealers are very bad, so i don't use it at all any more. Are those people who recommend it misleading us? I don't think so, maybe they just get better results with it then i do. Some "experts" reccommend it, some not. So that's why we are here, to discuss, not to sell one and only truth.:)
 
Edit: For example, many people on this forum recommend the usage of pruning sealers on fresh cuts, but my several years experiences with pruning sealers are very bad, so i don't use it at all any more. Are those people who recommend it misleading us? I don't think so, maybe they just get better results with it then i do. Some "experts" reccommend it, some not. So that's why we are here, to discuss, not to sell one and only truth.:)
Ok @Sifu you and I are all done here. Best of luck in your Bonsai journey.
 
Thanks Gents - I appreciate you taking the time to include some pictures, Brian. It really helps with the understanding.

So, in terms of the Maples, if you cut after the first growth phase, is it likely that the tree will bleed? Or will it not if the trees growth has effectively stalled for its mid-season break? Other than cut paste, is there anything you can do to help with bleeding trees? Being a novice, I'm nervous about the implications if I end up cutting to early o troops late

Thanks again,

Andy
 
So, in terms of the Maples, if you cut after the first growth phase, is it likely that the tree will bleed? Or will it not if the trees growth has effectively stalled for its mid-season break? Other than cut paste, is there anything you can do to help with bleeding trees? Being a novice, I'm nervous about the implications if I end up cutting to early o troops late
The bleeding of maples that you are referring to only happens circa 'as buds swell' and to a lesser extent in fall when there also is a pattern of overnight frost/freeze and daytime thaw. The stuff that 'bleeds' is just sugar water plus varying traces of other compounds that tend to make it tasty (sugar maple bleed is especially good after being cooked down into a syrup!).

Normally, the xylem lumens (empty, dead wood cells) are filled with water under tension. Water wets the cellulose and the surface tension of the water affects capillary action, holding water in all the lumens to the top of the tree against the force of gravity. Species with smaller lumens can (and do tend to) grow taller than those with wider ones. This capillary action is why there isn't a big sucking sound when one prunes/chops a tree stem.

So called 'live wood' has living cells among the dead xylem lumens. A primary function of these cells is to clog the lumens to seal off a pruning cut, say (CODIT). Frost-thaw cycling stimulates amylase to convert starches stored in the vacuoles of these cells (and all living cells in the tree) back into sugars. In maples, the cells in the living wood are particularly prone to dump much of this sugar into the lumens, making the xylem sap sugary. Water is then drawn in via osmosis, creating 'stem pressure'. Pruning then causes 'bleed' and the bleeding continues until the xylem at the cut is plugged or the stem pressure is relieved.

If nothing else, understand that trees cannot bleed to death, like you or I.
 
My experience is short but it
It goes. I have trunk chopped one A. Palmatum in autumn immodestly after leaf fall and one A. Burgerianum in summer. Both did well and with minimal bleeding, if any.
 
Bonsoir,
I also have some successful experience with late winter trunk chopping, so I don't see a problem here.

Neither do I. Where it works, it works.

But pruning in the growing season helps cuts heal faster and better in my still short experience. Of course, the environment plays a part, but not so much I think.
 
This is an acer palmatum from which I air layered off the top. The girdle was cut in spring. The layer was harvested in September, leaving a green barked stem all the way to the cut at the top of the 'trunk' as it is in the photo. This photo is two years later.

full


Food (carbohydrates) comes down the tree in the phloem, driven by the force of gravity and pressure created by the active biological loading of the sugars and water by living cells associated with the phloem tubes in the leaves. Acer palmatums are also renowned for inevitably dying back to a node, and sometimes to another. I guess that phloem pressure is quite low with no leaves. IOW, I don't think it is an issue solved by sealing.
 
You are talking about small wounds, i guess?, while i have in mind larger cuts from trunk chop, something of 4 to 5 or even more centimeters in diameter. Wounds of that size won't get closed during one summer/fall: at least 4 or 5 seasons are needed for that size of wound to completely seal, if you let your tree growing with no pruning at all. With pruning it will take much longer, i guess 10 + years? So you will get an open wound attracted by pests and diseases. While during winter there is no danger of any diseases, bugs, and wood will have time to dry out before growing season.
I guess that must be a main reason why experts recommend bigger cuts to be done during winter or when a tree is dormant, while smaller ones are left for late spring till middle summer.
Also when you do a big trunk chop, with no branches left on the trunk, the wound left behind wont even start healing before first branch would appear. So you can expect some dieback anyway.

Sifu, I think something that will help you understand this concept is identifying the difference between “healing” a scar for aesthetic purposes (where the bark grows over exposed wood) and how a tree compartmentalizes a wound inside of the wood.

Compartmentalization and the concept of CODIT, which @0soyoung mentioned 0soscientifically, is what is important to understanding the timing of big chops. NOT the aesthetic “healing” of bark over exposed wood, which can take years to accomplish.

Compartmentalization happens much quicker and it is the process that will protect your tree from disease entering the tree. In lamens terms, it’s as if the tree is forming a protective wall INSIDE the wood, to block out pathogens and protect the wood.

Now, compartmentalization cannot happen quickly enough to protect the tree from disease, desiccation, and dieback if the chop is made while the tree is dormant for too long. So, it is not the healing of scars which takes a long time that matters here. That is always an afterthought that can be dealt with later, after the tree has had the opportunity to compartmentalize any dead wood that results from a chop.

This is why you always hear people say that when pruning a deciduous branch off of a tree... to always cut outside the “shoulder” of the branch. It is easier for a tree to quickly compartmentalize the wood at the shoulder. If you prune past the shoulder into the trunk, the tree will struggle to compartmentalize and you risk a greater wound or die back down the trunk.

To illustrate this concept, here is a picture of a trunk on an American hornbeam clump that I collected. This trunk experienced dieback on the side where there was no branch to keep sapflow going when I made the initial trunk chop at the time of collection in the early spring. I cut the trunk back to the top branch and you can clearly see where the compartmentalizion of wood occurred. Fortunately I have more branches below this point where the trunk is still fully alive that I will cut back to eventually.

1A435D6A-5057-4C5E-AF3F-0A2988513877.jpeg
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The red line shows where the tree “walled off” the ‘dead’ wood (blue) to protect the ‘living’ or viable wood (green). That is Compartmentalization, that is occurring inside the wood of your tree anytime you make a pruning decision, and that is why the timing of your pruning matters. You want to prune at a time when the tree is NOT fully dormant so that it has the ability to compartmentalize. Don’t think about healing scars, because that comes later. While it may take years to “heal” a scar, the tree compartmentalizes very quickly in comparison. And that is what will protect your tree from disease, etc.

1A435D6A-5057-4C5E-AF3F-0A2988513877.jpeg968B5F7F-AC9E-4F9A-8CF2-A62CBC92503D.jpeg
 
identifying the difference between “healing” a scar for aesthetic purposes (where the bark grows over exposed wood) and how a tree compartmentalizes a wound inside of the wood.

Yes, different goals, different ways.

Thanks Mike Hennigan and Osoyoung for your precious input.

I'll make an abstract in French for myself, and maybe forward it to a couple of friends, quoting my source, of course. Kudos on you! :cool:
 
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So i ran all of this by a local here in Montreal who has VERY successfully been growing and showing Maples for 30-40 years.

He, without fault, keeps all maples at a steady +2-5C (35-41F) all winter.

Pruning:
-Trees in trunk development stages are pruned when the leaves have fallen off.
-Trees in refinement are prune at bud swell (untouched in fall)

Chops:
-Trees in trunk development stages are chopped at bud swell in the spring.
-Trees in refinement that require big prunes/chops, are done at bud swell.

Based on his experience (and the many others i have spoken to) bleeding does not have any noticeable negative effects.

Repotting (including heavy root work):
-Trees in trunk development stages are repotted at ANY time during dormancy (November to mid-March).
-Trees in refinement are repotted at ANY time during dormancy (November to mid-March).

Crucial: if his dormancy temperature drops below 0C (32F), he does not touch the trees at all until bud swell, or after first flush.
 
This is exactly why this forum is so brilliant when you are a beginner like me!!! You guys explain things so clearly and helpfully. Thank you so much. I now understand why timing is right and cutting when the tree is dormant isn't a good idea.

I am still confused as to what would happen if I cut to early or too late? If spring in the UK is say Mar - May(ish), can I assume that first growth phase would be over by June? So chopping anytime in June would be a good rule of thumb?

Thanks again

Andy
 
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