Spring update of my growing collection. So much to learn!

[GreatLakesBrad]

Overview of my trees for this spring. Varies from pre pre pre bonsai babies to a few pieces of material that are entering the refinement phase. Thanks to anyone who makes it all the way through! Critiques welcome. There is plenty I already have to critique myself on just from the last week since filming! Constant learning and aware that I have a long way to go. Cheers.

Spring Update - Great Lakes Bonsai

 

[Smoke]

I watched the whole thing. I thought you did a great job of cataloging your home and it's trees.

Just two questions?

Where do you measure the trident when you put a tape on it. This seems to be a place that gets measured wrong all the time. When you measure a trunk on a bonsai, it is customarily measured about 1 inch above the soil, unless there is a huge flare. Flare is not trunk. That's a buttress and roots exposed. The trunk starts above the flare and continues up the tree. For instance you would measure this trunk at the red line.



Many people measure at the edge of the exposed wood and call that the trunk. So in the case of this tree, it could be said it has a 12 inch trunk. We all know that's not true. Many fudge and measure at the blue lines with the red squiggle. That's better but the tree is still flaring there and that is considered the buttress and not really the trunk. The trunk is usually defined when the trunk quiets down and emerges upward. Usually about 1 to 1.5 inches above the soil.

My other question is about your reservation to prune this plant, when it obviously is begging to be pruned. Where did you hear of this waiting to "harden off" and what will be accomplished by you waiting?

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

Thank you for watching!

With regard to measuring... I suppose in this case, where the trunk begins to expand, and slightly above the soil line, is where I measured. This, with the thought in mind that eventually more of the nebari will be exposed (not for now, to encourage root growth).

I will adjust with that in mind on future measurements though - thank you for the walk--through on that - I would say a bit above where I measured then.

Re: pruning - basically, I'd like to have pushed more down the trunk on the trident. I will post the root/trunk/repot video by end of the weekend... there were so limited number of fine roots (crappy nursery pot that had poor soil) and this was my FIRST major surgery on any tree... so I got spooked to be honest to take any more.

With regard to timing of pruning, I was instructed that least traumatic time is before the buds push. So anything further, I'd want to wait for this tree to get healthy before putting it through more... let me know if you think otherwise... not really any further buds other than that primary foliage.

Plan would be grow in new pot for 2 years, evaluate strength of roots, and attempt more severe chop. Thoughts?

 

[Smoke]

My thoughts were more about when you were talking about the amur maple. You said you have not pruned because the tree had not hardened off. The shoots look to be a foot long.

First what do you mean by harden off. There has been a shit load of discussion on the topic here and I just want to be clear on your reservations.
Do you mean to lignify, the soft wood of the shoot to harden and begin feeling like wood?
The leaves to turn deep green and get hard to the feel like parchment?

Lets pretend for a minute.

Picture your tree in a sheep or cattle pasture. It gets eaten down every week once the shoots come out long enough for the animals to notice it.

Does the tree die with this abuse?
What does the tree do in response to the animal abuse.

It grows more shoots!
In fact it probably steps up it's game in response to the weekly pruning!
The animals don't give a shit if the plant lignifies before they eat it off. The plant doesn't give a shit either and goes into survival mode to stay alive the only way it knows how. Make more leaves.

So with that in mind why not perform an experiment just between you and me. No one else needs to know. Do this now, we don't have that much time. Divide the plant into thirds looking down. You could put some string tags on the thirds or just keep track, I know I could.
Cut one of the thirds branches in half. If they are a foot long cut them back to 6 inches.
Cut one of the thirds to 6 pairs of leaves on all the shoots.
Cut one of the thirds down to the first pair of leaves on all the shoots in the third.

Come back here and tell me what you find after three weeks. Tell me, or better yet show me which third ramified more and made the most new growth. We will be going into July by then and in my neighborhood I can't do this anymore till Sept. You may have a climate that allows you to do this till August.

Keep up the work.

FWIW, you remind me of someone that five or six years from now will have secretly finished his apprenticeship in Japan and will be well on his way. Just a feeling....

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

My thoughts were more about when you were talking about the amur maple. You said you have not pruned because the tree had not hardened off. The shoots look to be a foot long.

First what do you mean by harden off. There has been a shit load of discussion on the topic here and I just want to be clear on your reservations.
Do you mean to lignify, the soft wood of the shoot to harden and begin feeling like wood?
The leaves to turn deep green and get hard to the feel like parchment?

Lets pretend for a minute.

Picture your tree in a sheep or cattle pasture. It gets eaten down every week once the shoots come out long enough for the animals to notice it.

Does the tree die with this abuse?
What does the tree do in response to the animal abuse.

It grows more shoots!
In fact it probably steps up it's game in response to the weekly pruning!
The animals don't give a shit if the plant lignifies before they eat it off. The plant doesn't give a shit either and goes into survival mode to stay alive the only way it knows how. Make more leaves.

So with that in mind why not perform an experiment just between you and me. No one else needs to know. Do this now, we don't have that much time. Divide the plant into thirds looking down. You could put some string tags on the thirds or just keep track, I know I could.
Cut one of the thirds branches in half. If they are a foot long cut them back to 6 inches.
Cut one of the thirds to 6 pairs of leaves on all the shoots.
Cut one of the thirds down to the first pair of leaves on all the shoots in the third.

Come back here and tell me what you find after three weeks. Tell me, or better yet show me which third ramified more and made the most new growth. We will be going into July by then and in my neighborhood I can't do this anymore till Sept. You may have a climate that allows you to do this till August.

Keep up the work.

FWIW, you remind me of someone that five or six years from now will have secretly finished his apprenticeship in Japan and will be well on his way. Just a feeling....

Lignified, yes indeed, leaves harden off, shoots become semi-hardwood for this season's growth. Mirai video I watched indicated something about the plant being 'energy negative' when leaves are out and not yet lignified as they are not as well protected? Perhaps this would apply then only to those trees that are in a more fragile state / less developed that I ought to wait for shoots to become lignified?

Done and done, experimenting will be the only way to learn. And the Amur is most certainly vigorous. I think you were spot on when you said it's begging to be pruned. I'll give it a try! Thanks again.

 

[MattE]

Good stuff, great vid and subbed

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Lignified, yes indeed, leaves harden off, shoots become semi-hardwood for this season's growth. Mirai video I watched indicated something about the plant being 'energy negative' when leaves are out and not yet lignified as they are not as well protected? Perhaps this would apply then only to those trees that are in a more fragile state / less developed that I ought to wait for shoots to become lignified?

Done and done, experimenting will be the only way to learn. And the Amur is most certainly vigorous. I think you were spot on when you said it's begging to be pruned. I'll give it a try! Thanks again.

I love Mirai, but Ryan isn’t exactly an expert on deciduous trees and certain things he says don’t necessarily translate to deciduous well. Or at least needs to be interpreted or reinterpreted correctly. It’s a lot more cut and dry with most conifers to decern when new growth has reached the “harden off” point. But I think this advice can be more than confusing for deciduous. Because if you wait around for the the new shoots to lignify, you have waited far too long. The way I’m interpreting this for deciduous is when the first leaves of the season have hardened off, you’re good to go. Meaning the leaves have fully emerged and have establish their cuticle.

 

[Smoke]

Lignified, yes indeed, leaves harden off, shoots become semi-hardwood for this season's growth. Mirai video I watched indicated something about the plant being 'energy negative' when leaves are out and not yet lignified as they are not as well protected? Perhaps this would apply then only to those trees that are in a more fragile state / less developed that I ought to wait for shoots to become lignified?

Done and done, experimenting will be the only way to learn. And the Amur is most certainly vigorous. I think you were spot on when you said it's begging to be pruned. I'll give it a try! Thanks again.

Almost everyone I hear talking about all this harden off crap always seems to talk of a Mirai video they watch. Maybe in Portland Oregon. But, not everyone lives there and sorry, Ryan just cannot know all the micro climates in the whole USA or Canada. Hell, my leaves and stems come out lignified.

If I were you I would still do the thirds thing. It will show you a lot. A lot of what you have been missing!!

 

[just.wing.it]

Almost everyone I hear talking about all this harden off crap always seems to talk of a Mirai video they watch. Maybe in Portland Oregon. But, not everyone lives there and sorry, Ryan just cannot know all the micro climates in the whole USA or Canada. Hell, my leaves and stems come out lignified.

If I were you I would still do the thirds thing. It will show you a lot. A lot of what you have been missing!!

As you know, there's more to it than just parroting Ryan's orders.

Its plant biology.
Photosynthesis.....time.....

Not gonna beat this dead horse again too much....but.

Ryan's climate is probably more akin to everyone else's than yours, Mr. Fresno.

Most of us can't get away with what you do....our growing season isnt long enough.

A tree in a pasture getting nibbled by goats is not a potted plant....and a poor comparison.

Its essentially the same argument as why MANY bonsai professionals do not pinch the new shoots on their maples.
You may get away with it for a few years, and even see some "improvement", but the tree will slowly decline, because you're not giving the new growth time to photosynthesize.

 

[just.wing.it]

I love Mirai, but Ryan isn’t exactly an expert on deciduous trees and certain things he says don’t necessarily translate to deciduous well. Or at least needs to be interpreted or reinterpreted correctly. It’s a lot more cut and dry with most conifers to decern when new growth has reached the “harden off” point. But I think this advice can be more than confusing for deciduous. Because if you wait around for the the new shoots to lignify, you have waited far too long. The way I’m interpreting this for deciduous is when the first leaves of the season have hardened off, you’re good to go. Meaning the leaves have fully emerged and have establish their cuticle.

Lignification and hardening off are 2 different things.
Lignification is turning to wood.
Leaves don't turn to wood....but they do go from a tender fleshy soft light green, to a harder tougher darker green....this is due to formation of the cuticle.
The cuticle is the waxy coating that the leaves form and is what people are referring to when they say "hardening off".

I notice that Al only picks this fight with relative newbs....but its is mentioned daily here and elsewhere by many experienced folks all over the bonsai community.

I think he just like to tell people that he knew Ryan when he was a knee high.

(Al - "Well, I taught that young whipper-snapper Ryan everything he knows!......minus his years in Japan, of course. That boy ain't had hair 1 on his ass while I was cutting new growth off my tridents in April!")

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

This site continues to amaze. Appreciate all of the feedback. I will try the pruning approach Smoke suggested on the Amur since it does appear to be very healthy and see where we go.

My concerned was echoed by just.wing.it for my more fragile trees, certainly those I’ve pruned heavy/root pruned/collected:

“You may get away with it for a few years, and even see some "improvement", but the tree will slowly decline, because you're not giving the new growth time to photosynthesize.”

6a here, final freeze dates in early May.

Bottom line, have to try some different approaches in my microGRclimate over years to learn what works. In the meantime thanks for helping fill the knowledge gap.

 

[Smoke]

Lignification and hardening off are 2 different things.
Lignification is turning to wood.
Leaves don't turn to wood....but they do go from a tender fleshy soft light green, to a harder tougher darker green....this is due to formation of the cuticle.
The cuticle is the waxy coating that the leaves form and is what people are referring to when they say "hardening off".

I notice that Al only picks this fight with relative newbs....but its is mentioned daily here and elsewhere by many experienced folks all over the bonsai community.

I think he just like to tell people that he knew Ryan when he was a knee high.

(Al - "Well, I taught that young whipper-snapper Ryan everything he knows!......minus his years in Japan, of course. That boy ain't had hair 1 on his ass while I was cutting new growth off my tridents in April!")

Does this make you feel good, to put words into other peoples mouth. I have never said I taught Ryan anything. I just happen to sit with him at some club meetings back when he knew nothing about bonsai and years before he went to Japan. I never said any of the things people keep saying I said. Why do people need to lie to make themselves feel better.

Please, people debate the trees and the methods not me. If you think my ideas that I gave this guy were wrong about how to treat that amur maple say so. Tell me what I told him to do that was wrong. Lets debate the method, not me. I don't give a shit whether you like me or not...for me, obviously, this is about bonsai. I don't know what it's about for you other than just bashing people. You came into this thread that was civil and was not of any concern to you, and decided that crapping it up because I said that all of these people that wait till Nov to prune their trees are because they watch that stupid Mirai video and miss a whole season of working on their plants. If you think I'm wrong, fine. Don't do what I do. I don't do what you do, and come into threads and shit them all up cause we disagree.

For the record and your small bonsai intellect if we have to get personal, what I asked him to do is what everyone should be doing with their plants. I asked him to divide it into thirds and do three separate tests. Find out what works best for his local and how the tree responds. I asked him to get back in three weeks to see what happens. After that we can do some other tests. When it's all said and done, he may learn something about how to treat his plants for the future. Nothing more.

You know how I treat maples in general. I have lots of documentation here. How about some of you loud mouths start ponying up on this discussion forum and show some work. How about YOU show us how you treat maples and ramify them. How about YOU showing some chops over some years and how YOU grow branches? Why don't you do some contributing around here instead of beating up on ONE of the main people that contributes here. How about YOU start by showing us how waiting till all this hardening off BS and cuticle shit helps make the tree better? Put your money where your big mouth is. STEP UP!

 

[just.wing.it]

STEP UP!

Did. Tree died.
Going back to the slow way

 

[Smoke]

Did. Tree died.
Going back to the slow way

cool, if your good with that I'm good with that.

I'm not good with that for my own trees. I have my way. My way works for me. If I think I can help someone with a better way am I not entitled to try?
Do I have to hear all the bullshit about my method.


I say again am I not entitled to try?

 

[Smoke]

It's just a yes or no question.......

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

It's just a yes or no question.......

Hi Smoke,
I am thinking that your method looks doable, with 2 plus flushes of growth per year. But with the OP’s climate he might not get a second flush. Or maybe he could/should with heaps of fertilizer. As you said tho, he should try different methods to learn what works for him.
As for your method and ramification vs growing primary branches first? Talking about deciduous trees, can you explain a bit further for the novice here about the overall system?
I understand the growing trunks first, but do I use your method to grow everything after the trunk sections, or is it only a secondary and tertiary branch method?
Sorry for the questions, as I can’t buy pre-bonsai material to work with.
The photo below is the closest I have to building a tree from. I am chopping most of the top off then how does one move forward?

Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

This site continues to amaze. Appreciate all of the feedback. I will try the pruning approach Smoke suggested on the Amur since it does appear to be very healthy and see where we go.

My concerned was echoed by just.wing.it for my more fragile trees, certainly those I’ve pruned heavy/root pruned/collected:

“You may get away with it for a few years, and even see some "improvement", but the tree will slowly decline, because you're not giving the new growth time to photosynthesize.”

6a here, final freeze dates in early May.

Bottom line, have to try some different approaches in my microGRclimate over years to learn what works. In the meantime thanks for helping fill the knowledge gap.

Hi,
Great video of your home set up, and I hope you enjoy the learning side to this site as much as I am. And a really cool Dawn Redwood trunk. I will enjoy watching this development as I enjoy this species also. Air layers off bigger trees work well for DR’s also.
Charles

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

Hi,
Great video of your home set up, and I hope you enjoy the learning side to this site as much as I am. And a really cool Dawn Redwood trunk. I will enjoy watching this development as I enjoy this species also. Air layers off bigger trees work well for DR’s also.
Charles

Many thanks! I like the maple (?) you posted, I'm still with you in the "ok, I know where to chop but how do I move it forward?" stage on some of my trees.

And yes. I love the variety of approaches, the nuances of climate and species... it's all lovely.

 

[just.wing.it]

cool, if your good with that I'm good with that.

I'm not good with that for my own trees. I have my way. My way works for me. If I think I can help someone with a better way am I not entitled to try?
Do I have to hear all the bullshit about my method.


I say again am I not entitled to try?

Certainly.

 

[just.wing.it]

cool, if your good with that I'm good with that.

I'm not good with that for my own trees. I have my way. My way works for me. If I think I can help someone with a better way am I not entitled to try?
Do I have to hear all the bullshit about my method.


I say again am I not entitled to try?

And, your results speak for themselves.
You build some fine trees mighty quickly.
No denying it. But it doesn't take away from what Ryan says.