Some times you are just in awe...

[Attila Soos]

Not to step on anybody's art, but I would take this little tree over many other trees that may be called artistic. I am quite happy with it's soul and character, the way it is.

I don't just admire the technique that created it, but I also admire the tree itself. It is a remarcable tree. The more I look at it, the more I like it.

I wish I could do something remotely similar.

 

[Chris Johnston]

And those that can do neither complain about those who can.



For the record... for those who seemed to be grossly misinformed......

I write about bonsai and have been published some eighteen or so times, translated into at least 4 languages as well.

I teach bonsai, workshops and demos and most recently I am teaching introduction to bonsai classes every semester at a local community college.

I helped to create www.knowledgeofbonsai.org and www.artofbonsai.org and I have created what are unquestionable the best and most successful bonsai contests on the web. I have played an instrumental role in bringing together the webs first collection of world-class galleries, interviews with some of the best artists in the world, and a collection of blogs by top notched artists as well.

I also do bonsai, bringing in 4 first place ribbons, three second place ribbons, and a handful of third place ribbons at club shows. I have about 500 trees in the ground and a hundred or so in development, some have been shown here, at KoB, in articles, and on other forums around the web.

So, not only do I write, I do bonsai as well, and for frosting, I add to the bonsai community on a daily basis. Yes, this beginner is directly responsible for some of the best bonsai content available on the web.

This, in spite of constantly listening to static such as yours, which is off topic, off subject, and posted only to attack the person, not the subject. But I'm not complaining, this sort of stuff always motivates me.


Oh yeah, this will be my fifth year in bonsai.......




Will

Check my blog for more chest punding http://www.knowledgeofbonsai.org/will_heath/

Once again and again and again and again, thank you for your resume. We will file it with all the others.

 

[Anonymous User]

Once again and again and again and again, thank you for your resume. We will file it with all the others.

We? Do have a mouse in your pocket?

My post was in direct response to yet another false assumption, your post, on the other hand, had no purpose other than attempting to incite yet another clash here on the last forum that will allow you to do so.

I did link to my full bonsai "resume" above please feel free to browse it until you're green.




One good thing though, this place is seeing action again......



Will

 

[Glider]

Hi.

Will i have a question about your principles on art. If two or three artists paint the same bowl of fruit from the same angle at the same time, does this mean two of those paintings are not art, as they are the same as the others? (They were all done by artists).

If an artist paints a copy of another painting surely its is still art as an artist has painted it.
The same as each cooky cutter bonsai has been sculpted by an artist and must be considered art, as none will be excactly the same.

If every tree had to be different to be considered a good quality piece of art, then there would of been no point in the principle styles created by the japanese.

Simon

I agree. I think you show a flaw in arguments predicated on the assumption that 'art is that which is done by artists' (by this argument, their morning ablutions should also be considered 'art').

I think that which is art is so because it affects the viewer in a certain way thus, art stands (or falls) on its own merit, regardless of who did it. By this argument, a copy, if it affects viwers in the same way as the original, is also art, it's just not original, which is a different argument altogether.

 

[Anonymous User]

These are good, valid points Glider, but I wonder then why so much value is placed upon original art and so much disdain upon copies?


Will

 

[Rick Moquin]

These are good, valid points Glider, but I wonder then why so much value is placed upon original art and so much disdain upon copies?


Will

... perhaps snobbery?? The original tree in question is indeed like many others but the skill and talent required to produce it are admirable and the vision of the creator should never be in question, whether it's art, Art or just a good looking bonsai.

The following 2 bonsai went for 180 and 330K respectively. I like neither one but can't stop but marvel over the technique and talent required to produce the foliage. The 180K looks young because of the sharp zig zag. Whilst this is a major draw back on this tree (IMO) I prefer the natural looking foliage of the younger one over the "pompoms" of the second much older one.

 

[Anonymous User]

... perhaps snobbery??

Hi Rick,

As long as we are using words commonly applied by laymen to the art community, let us not forget elitist, highfalutin, exclusiveness, exclusivity, selectivity, selectiveness, superiority, stuck up, airs, jerks, and others....

Okay, that should cover the name calling.....back to the discussion?




Will

 

[Chris Johnston]

To call any of the trees in this post "copies" is to misappropriate that word, and to completely ignore the most basic fact of the definition of bonsai: we are dealing with living material, which makes each and every one, for good or ill, a uniquely individual work. If someone were to try to "copy" another bonsai, the artifice of the result would be readily apparent.

 

[Anonymous User]

To call any of the trees in this post "copies" is to misappropriate that word, and to completely ignore the most basic fact of the definition of bonsai: we are dealing with living material, which makes each and every one, for good or ill, a uniquely individual work. If someone were to try to "copy" another bonsai, the artifice of the result would be readily apparent.

You miss the point, I never claimed here that anyone directly attempted to copy another bonsai.

What I labeled them was "cookie cutter" and I refer to the Cambridge definition of the term;

cookie-cutter
adjective US DISAPPROVING
similar to other things of the same type, especially in a way that shows a lack of imagination:
a row of cookie-cutter houses

Not copies, but similar. Do we need to post the oft posted pictures of Japanese nurseries with rows and rows of benches, all holding bonsai just like the ones shown in this thread?

Certainly a single one of these would make many a bonsaists proud, but would a bench full of them say anything about creativity, imagination, or talent?

I think not.

By the way, what ever happened to the one you laid away on a payment plan that would also fit well with these shown?


Will

 

[JasonG]

... perhaps snobbery?? The original tree in question is indeed like many others but the skill and talent required to produce it are admirable and the vision of the creator should never be in question, whether it's art, Art or just a good looking bonsai.

The following 2 bonsai went for 180 and 330K respectively. I like neither one but can't stop but marvel over the technique and talent required to produce the foliage. The 180K looks young because of the sharp zig zag. Whilst this is a major draw back on this tree (IMO) I prefer the natural looking foliage of the younger one over the "pompoms" of the second much older one.

Those trunks are pretty much idnetical and the older one has just as sharp a zig zag as the younger one, it is just slightly hidden by a front branch. Both trees are killer JWP's but I don't think they are copies by any means, each is diffrent enough to stand on their own. BTW, I don't see any pompoms on either tree.....

I like to see you put skill first

As to Wills comments on cookie cutters on benches in Japan....most of the time you see these pictures of nurseries that have row after row of JBP you see them from above or a distance. I am sure that if you got up close to them and looked at each tree there would be some individuality in MOST trees. I don't think it would be as bad as one would think.

All of these trees are killer and hopefully in my lifetime there is someone growing trees like this in America, as of now there isn't anyone that can do it......

Jason

 

[simon84]

I agree. I think you show a flaw in arguments predicated on the assumption that 'art is that which is done by artists' (by this argument, their morning ablutions should also be considered 'art').


Glider, ART can not be done by anything but an artist, Anyone can be an artist, when they set out to create art, what ever its is,(painting,sculpture,drawing) they become the artist.
If there morning ablutions are done in an artistic way then they are art.

Will im working on finding a copied masterpiece, i know theres one out there, its proveing hard to find though.

Simon

 

[Rick Moquin]

Hi Rick,

As long as we are using words commonly applied by laymen to the art community, let us not forget elitist, highfalutin, exclusiveness, exclusivity, selectivity, selectiveness, superiority, stuck up, airs, jerks, and others....

Okay, that should cover the name calling.....back to the discussion?




Will

... who's name calling??

 

[Chris Johnston]

What I labeled them was "cookie cutter" and I refer to the Cambridge definition of the term;

cookie-cutter
adjective US DISAPPROVING
similar to other things of the same type, especially in a way that shows a lack of imagination:
a row of cookie-cutter houses

Not copies, but similar. Do we need to post the oft posted pictures of Japanese nurseries with rows and rows of benches, all holding bonsai just like the ones shown in this thread?

Certainly a single one of these would make many a bonsaists proud, but would a bench full of them say anything about creativity, imagination, or talent?

I think not.

Will

In no way would I ever believe that these trees show a lack of imagination. Every tree is an individual. Following your argument to its logical conclusion would mean that every tree in a particular style, especially if it had similar branching or trunk movement to another tree, would be a cookie cutter. I celebrate all high quality bonsai. I just don't feel the need to artificially categorize them as art in that way.

 

[emk]

Every tree is an individual.

To borrow with some liberty from Mr. Orwell, "...but some trees are more individual than others."

I find this kind of topic fascinating since it shows how touchy people can be about a little word like "art". Just because something isn't art doesn't make it worthless. Skill, craftsmanship, and artistry (the kind produced by an artisan rather than by an artist) can all be nobly exhibited by a well-executed bonsai. Even the most artistic can learn much from scrutinizing a highly refined specimen and would never think of calling the best examples of even a wildly popular style "junk," even if they would have approached the original material in a much different manner.

The hard truth is that not everyone has the artistic flare of a Mozart or a Picasso or a Rodin. How we deal with that as we enter the practice of creating bonsai may tell us a lot about ourselves.