Soil freeze test

[Kullas]

Turface

 

[Kullas]

8822

 

[Arlithrien]

As someone who lives up North I can save you some time. Nothing should change in 30 days (or three freeze cycles) where I live it's normal to be above freezing during the day and below at night. This can happen everyday for a month and a half without exaggeration, As well as all the days before and after that time too. Maybe 60 times total each winter (as an estimate). You'll probably have to freeze and thaw these particles many many times before you see much change. I can tell the 8822 you have is the soft stuff so that might start to go fast but the other two are going to be marathon experiments. If you are up for it I'm excited to see the results

I've used safet-sorb, if I recall correctly it has same composition as turface and many other monto clay derivatives which are roughly 2/3 diatoms and 1/3 clay. In my experience it goes soft faster than the white DE. It doesn't handle pressure/friction as well, you can rub it into nothing between your fingers with ease. My prediction is the clay is going to be the weak link in the equation otherwise the three are very similar.

 

[Kullas]

I dumped the sifted fines out and start all over for another 10 days.
The 8822 had mud in the bottom
The saf t sorb didn't have mud just some break down
The turface had some breakdown just not as much as the saf t sorb

The turface is the winner so far and saf t sorb a close 2nt
Next weekend I'm getting some akadama to add to the test.

 

[ShadyStump]

This is FANTASTIC!
Thanks for doing this. It answers the burning questions I've had about these sorts of products.
40 degree F temperature swings from day to night during the winter aren't rare occurrences in my area, so finding cheap soil components that will stand up to that is becoming increasingly important to me.
Looks like the 8822 isn't going to do it for me.

 

[Pyewacket]

I picked up some Safe-T sorb at Tractor Supply the other day, but I have no idea where my screening stuff is (everything is packed due to a move, slowly unpacking). Hopefully I can come up with something - I have succulents that need repotting. Hopefully mine looks as good as yours. I'll post some pics when I can deal with it properly (eg I find some way to screen it).

 

[ShadyStump]

I picked up some Safe-T sorb at Tractor Supply the other day, but I have no idea where my screening stuff is (everything is packed due to a move, slowly unpacking). Hopefully I can come up with something - I have succulents that need repotting. Hopefully mine looks as good as yours. I'll post some pics when I can deal with it properly (eg I find some way to screen it).

One of these will do the bulk of it. Often found in a dollar store, or just a couple bucks at Walmart or the like.

Even an old bit of window screen will work.

 

[Kullas]

This is FANTASTIC!
Thanks for doing this. It answers the burning questions I've had about these sorts of products.
40 degree F temperature swings from day to night during the winter aren't rare occurrences in my area, so finding cheap soil components that will stand up to that is becoming increasingly important to me.
Looks like the 8822 isn't going to do it for me.

The 8822 does appear to not like the freeze cycle.
I have 2 trees in nothing but 8822. A cottonwood and a sycamore. I dont make it a habit of running any of my soils between fingers on a regular basis No degrade to drainage so far. Time will tell

 

[Kullas]

I picked up some Safe-T sorb at Tractor Supply the other day, but I have no idea where my screening stuff is (everything is packed due to a move, slowly unpacking). Hopefully I can come up with something - I have succulents that need repotting. Hopefully mine looks as good as yours. I'll post some pics when I can deal with it properly (eg I find some way to screen it).

Saf t sorb will be fine for succulents after ya sift

 

[Peconomou]

Rice strainer found at Asian markets are great sifters!!

 

[Pyewacket]

Yeah I've got a roll of window screen and other siftage type things packed somewhere, unless they got lost in the move. No telling until I get everything unpacked. It was an emergency move in the throes of the pandemic last year, lots of stuff got left or lost, like ALL MY GROWSTONE daggumit! But I was meaning to hit a dollar store and look for something this weekend, just got caught up schlepping paving stones and potting supplies. I've moved a ton and a half of paving stones in the last few days. I mean that literally. I'll have to pick up a small roll of window screen too, I use it for the bottoms of my pots. It's really frustrating when you know you have what you need but no idea where it is.

 

[BeepBeepBonsaiSheep]

8822 breakdown, bummer. I got a whole bag to use

Guess I can mix it in…

 

[Kullas]

Here is the last update on the freezer test. I think I seen enough. Now granted the soil shouldn't be exposed to the type of freeze I put it through but it still breaks down. And on the other 2 samples the 8822 turns green. So for me personally I am going to drop the 8822 and continue with the saf t sorb and turface. My preference being turface.

8822 not alot left of the original size

Saf t sorb



And the turface

 

[Kullas]

I will post the wet sample and the watered samples tomorrow. I didn't see much change over those samples.
One thing about the 8822 is that it does hold moisture.

 

[MSU JBoots]

I’m still very new to the hobby so maybe I’m missing something here. Based on your study and desire to exclude the Napa 8822 it seems you are basing that solely on its penchant for breakdown. However, is that a bad thing? It will require repotting more frequently due to loss of percolation. Akadama breaks down also but is the gold standard for soil choice. In fact, I’m understanding that the breakdown helps facilitate finer root growth. So maybe the breakdown of the 8822 isn't such a bad thing. Maybe seeing what akadama does under your same testing conditions would be a useful data point.

 

[Dav4]

I’m still very new to the hobby so maybe I’m missing something here. Based on your study and desire to exclude the Napa 8822 it seems you are basing that solely on its penchant for breakdown. However, is that a bad thing? It will require repotting more frequently due to loss of percolation. Akadama breaks down also but is the gold standard for soil choice. In fact, I’m understanding that the breakdown helps facilitate finer root growth. So maybe the breakdown of the 8822 isn't such a bad thing. Maybe seeing what akadama does under your same testing conditions would be a useful data point.

Ultimately, I think you need to see how these different components work under real life conditions. I have no doubt that akadama will break down under freeze/thaw conditions. The real question is what happens with the roots that are growing within that medium. Back in the day in MA, I grew everything in turface, and I can honestly say it doesn't break down much over time in a zone 6 climate. My trees were ok growing in it, too. The switch to akadama based mixes for my better trees occurred years ago down south in zone 7b GA and I generally thought the switch was beneficial for health and development. Now, I'm back up north and my best trees are in akadama mixes, with bags of the stuff in the garage. At least half of my collection will be maintained outside all year. will my trees continue to do well? Time will tell.

 

[Kullas]

I’m still very new to the hobby so maybe I’m missing something here. Based on your study and desire to exclude the Napa 8822 it seems you are basing that solely on its penchant for breakdown. However, is that a bad thing? It will require repotting more frequently due to loss of percolation. Akadama breaks down also but is the gold standard for soil choice. In fact, I’m understanding that the breakdown helps facilitate finer root growth. So maybe the breakdown of the 8822 isn't such a bad thing. Maybe seeing what akadama does under your same testing conditions would be a useful data point.

My desire was not exclude 8822. I still have 2 bags of it and have trees growing in purely 8822. It does a great job of holding moisture and not being wet.
Most trees will grow in almost anything given it gets the proper requirements, water, air and the minerals it needs. If you plan to repot every year or may even 2 years it will probably be fine.
Soil is a hot topic around here everyone has there best mix and it probably is based on where they are located. There are those that say if you don't use this you are a fool and don't deserve to have trees and then there are those on the other end of the spectrum that say I use whatever I want and my trees are growing.
Just me personally I don't use akadama for a couple of reasons. I here to many stories of the quality of some of the brands. If I pay a premium price I should get a premium product.
2nt is availability i have to drive almost 2 hours to get it if they have it.
3rd is price plane and simple. I have a budget I have to live with along with just about everyone.
For me its a mix of turface, saf t sorb, pine bark and maybe a little 8822 if I need more moisture. It works for me.