Silly project perhaps.

[Gbhunter77]

Thats how I have been doing it all along.

 

[jk_lewis]

Okay, I thought the pinching versus pruning was the opposite for Shimpahu. I thought Shimpaku was supposed to be pinched, pulled loose, with fingers. I thought that pruning, cutting with scissors, created bad browning results.

Shimpaku don't care, and it depends on how sloppy you get (either method) whether you get brown ends. (And, for trees in training, brown ends don't matter much, anyway. Presumably when you are polishing a show-worthy tree, you"re more painstaking.)

 

[Gbhunter77]

After looking at some of the threads and pictures after five years I have come to the realization that I do not have a clue as to what Im doing. I will upload some pictures of the ugly $%^= i call my trees later today. Mine are lanky not thick....just plain ugly. Here are two , the first is an attempt at a lightning strike that up to 40 min ago thought was pretty good, the second is what is left from a 6 foot black pine. I have the ability to keep trees alive, that comes easy to me but I have no creative bone in my body. So I make ugly weed in a pot.

 

[jk_lewis]

Well, the first one may not be redeemable, but set it aside, feed it occasionally and just let it grow and see what happens. I can't see much in th second one, but it certainly may be salvageable as a Mini bonsai.

Get some books and Read, Read, Read.

 

[Gbhunter77]

I got books dvds and all that good stuff. Im just done at this point. I did the club thing. This is one of those things that Im just not good at. I think 5 years is a good enough try,no point in beating a dead horse. At least I will save some money, I just have to toss the plants and sell the tools.

 

[M. Frary]

I think there is still a good tree in that juniper. I would just let it grow this year then cut it down to the lowest branch. You could then either tip it to the right and bend the branch up and maybe do some kind of half assed literati. Or you could tip it to the left so the branch cascades. That is the the choice I would make for this tree. It could use some bending but I think it could be a decent tree. These things don't happen over night. As for the pine I've only just started getting into pine trees so I won't give an opinion on that. But I will say this ,there is no hopeless tree until it's dead.

 

[Gbhunter77]

The pine is an inch tall, im not sure how that can be hopeless, but thats why I suck at this. I dont see anything in any tree. Not to mention learning this is not exactly straightforward. People here dont agree on methods how the hell am I supposed to figure it out. Every book has a different approach. "Hey fertilizer burns the roots at full strength!", "No! Thats a myth I use full strength and then some". You have to be kidding me!
i look at some trees in pics that everyone is fawning over and to me they look like crap. Others I like but seem to be alone in that sentiment. Not to mention the bigges line of bs I have ever been fed and that is "bonsai represent old trees in nature" NATURE?! In what... Anime?!
People tell me this and that tree died from cold...is that so, well then why did a tree half the size in an even tinier pot survive outside with no die back and its even less hardy (on paper).
"Take the wire of before it bites into the wood.", " No if it bites into the wood it adds character".
"Make sure you water your tree on a blue moon with the big dipper visable while dancing around a fire screaming I AM A HAMSTER AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT! Then shake my foot six time, say the Pledge of Alligence 3 times in Portuguese and 2 times in Polish with a Chinese accent".

 

[Deleted member 18707]

i look at some trees in pics that everyone is fawning over and to me they look like crap. Others I like but seem to be alone in that sentiment. Not to mention the bigges line of bs I have ever been fed and that is "bonsai represent old trees in nature" NATURE?! In what... Anime?!

I love this post so much.

 

[jk_lewis]

The pine is an inch tall, im not sure how that can be hopeless, but thats why I suck at this. I dont see anything in any tree. Not to mention learning this is not exactly straightforward. People here dont agree on methods how the hell am I supposed to figure it out. Every book has a different approach.

Take a look at this page to see what can be done with tiny trees (there's even some of mine there!). https://www.google.com/search?q=min...LzsAWFkoC4Bg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1280&bih=602

It can be and is a LOT of fun.

And, the fact that people don't agree on methods SHOULD tell you that there's more then one way to do almost everything in bonsai.

Don't know what books you have, but look for Herb Gustafson's "Bonsai Workshop" (available used on many on-line bookstores). It is a very good primer on bonsai and bonsai techniques.

Do NOT rely on the Internet for much more than confusion and contention.

 

[MidMichBonsai]

The pine is an inch tall, im not sure how that can be hopeless, but thats why I suck at this. I dont see anything in any tree. Not to mention learning this is not exactly straightforward. People here dont agree on methods how the hell am I supposed to figure it out. Every book has a different approach. "Hey fertilizer burns the roots at full strength!", "No! Thats a myth I use full strength and then some". You have to be kidding me!
i look at some trees in pics that everyone is fawning over and to me they look like crap. Others I like but seem to be alone in that sentiment. Not to mention the bigges line of bs I have ever been fed and that is "bonsai represent old trees in nature" NATURE?! In what... Anime?!
People tell me this and that tree died from cold...is that so, well then why did a tree half the size in an even tinier pot survive outside with no die back and its even less hardy (on paper).
"Take the wire of before it bites into the wood.", " No if it bites into the wood it adds character".
"Make sure you water your tree on a blue moon with the big dipper visable while dancing around a fire screaming I AM A HAMSTER AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT! Then shake my foot six time, say the Pledge of Alligence 3 times in Portuguese and 2 times in Polish with a Chinese accent".

I understand where you're coming from but maybe you're trying to copy everyone else too much. You seem to have some aesthetic. You know what you like and what you don't. Who cares if it's not "right" if you like it. Yes, the more refined aesthetic DOES NOT often look like a small tree that would be found in nature. The first time I saw a "great" pine bonsai I said to myself, "What the crap is that? The needles only point up!" Now I understand why more and in doing so appreciate the aesthetic a little more.

There are definitely examples of a more natural aesthetic in bonsai. If you like that, check out Dan Robinson http://www.elandangardens.com/museum/redefined.htm. He has a very natural feel to his work that some don't like but I really appreciate.

I think all of your confusion/frustration is literally people just expressing how to achieve the aesthetic they prefer most (no wire scars or "character" because of them). If you know how to keep trees alive and healthy, forget what's right and do what you want.

I hope you don't choose to quit but if you do, you can send your tools, books and trees my way...I'm in Michigan too!

 

[Gbhunter77]

Well for one the pinching thing, this is not a difference in method but one side saying its fine and the other saying it will kill the tree.
I do not know, in my personal opinion I just think Im too stupid to grasp the concept of how to make a nice tree.

Also why would you want my trees? Tools sure but the trees are so FUBAR that there is no going back. My friend here is most likely going to get the tools (sorry). The trees will be destroyed.

 

[MidMichBonsai]

I'll take the trees too if you are just going to trash them. Maybe I can pull something out of them. If I can't, I can always trash them myself...if I can, one more tree is still alive and may be something some day.

Working on trees is how we learn. I will learn on just about anything...don't destroy them...

 

[Dav4]

Well for one the pinching thing, this is not a difference in method but one side saying its fine and the other saying it will kill the tree.
I do not know, in my personal opinion I just think Im too stupid to grasp the concept of how to make a nice tree.

Also why would you want my trees? Tools sure but the trees are so FUBAR that there is no going back. My friend here is most likely going to get the tools (sorry). The trees will be destroyed.

This sounds like something my 13 year old son would say. There is a strong "feeling sorry for myself" gene on my side of the family and he got it in spades. It drives me crazy when he talks like this (reminds me of myself when I was younger, I guess), and I don't let him get away with it, either. If you want something bad enough, suck it up and try harder. Learning the finer aspects of bonsai horticulturally and artistically in 5 years???? Some have done it, but many have not. Some never do it despite a lifetime of effort. I suspect you need to lower your expectations a little bit and try to enjoy the journey a little more. Good luck.

 

[Gbhunter77]

Ok but why does no one address the pinching question? Does it kill? If so why do so many people use this method and have great results?
Also art does not really have such stringent rules how can expression have rules? So far to me this "art" is more like chess with debates being about what type of board will help you win. 5 years is enough wasted time to me, maybe in another 10 years if I am alive I will pick this up again.
I have zero issues keeping trees alive and thriving its this "art" thing I have issues with.

 

[Dav4]

Constantly pinching any plant, let alone a juniper, will weaken it, and weak trees are more susceptible to illness. as with many things in bonsai, there's a balance one needs to achieve between reaching your artistic goals and keeping your bonsai healthy and growing well. In my opinion, you're getting too wrapped up in the fine print and missing the whole point of this endevour...enjoyment. I'm pretty much self taught but have read more books, magazine articles, Internet threads, etc, over the last 2 decades then I could possibly remember. I didn't have a teacher the first time I re potted, pruned, wired, etc...I just did it. And I did it again, and I read more...and I did it again. Eventually you learn what works and what doesn't. Last year, I sheared a juniper for the first time- don't ask why- but I wanted to see what would happen if I did it. Try new things, don't sweat the small stuff....AND HAVE FUN!


...and the whole 'art' thing comes after you've exposed yourself to many many good bonsai and not before

 

[Gbhunter77]

Ah! And for me there lies the rub. I do not know how to have fun, I just know perfection or nothing. I have just been this way I wish I knew what that feels like to have fun. I play video games for stats not fun, i practice magic for 3 to 16 hours a day not because I enjoy it but because I have to. If I do not I suffer debilitating anxiety and kind of have a meltdown. When my trees do not turn out the way I hoped i feel destroyed and like a complete failure (it goes further but i will not discuss). When me my flight instructor and I did touch and go's they had to be perfect. If not I could not sleep or eat for days. At times its like living in a nightmare, some sort of living hell created by my own mind. After my illness things got so much worse.