19Mateo83
Masterpiece
very cool!
Seedling Cutting Technique... for... Maples???
- Thread starter Yamabudoudanshi
- Start date
Joe2758
Yamadori
Hello all,
I tried some trident maples with 25-50% success, tops. Like the others I'm doing it for the short internodes, not roots so much. I did some larches with better success. I'll be doing scots pine and black pine probably in a few weeks.
Some questions:
1. The maples I tried had two sets of leaves (well the cotyledons, the weird elm looking ones, and then one set of the maple looking ones). The stems weren't very firm. I did this at a later stage than in the book picture, but it still seemed like I did it at too early a stage? I was going to actually wait even longer before I tried more. I'm a beginner, but it really just seems like they would do better later on. What do you think?
2. I cut all the roots off and did hormone treatment, not leaving a lateral root. Was this the problem?
3. I planted to the depth of the cotyledons right on top of the soil. Was this not deep enough?
4. They were in a greenhouse.
5. The ones that died looked pretty bad very quickly
6. Should my Korean Hornbeams have better, similar, or worse results than maples on average?
7. Is there any reason a Scots pine should be any different than JBP in regard to seedling cuttings?
I tried some trident maples with 25-50% success, tops. Like the others I'm doing it for the short internodes, not roots so much. I did some larches with better success. I'll be doing scots pine and black pine probably in a few weeks.
Some questions:
1. The maples I tried had two sets of leaves (well the cotyledons, the weird elm looking ones, and then one set of the maple looking ones). The stems weren't very firm. I did this at a later stage than in the book picture, but it still seemed like I did it at too early a stage? I was going to actually wait even longer before I tried more. I'm a beginner, but it really just seems like they would do better later on. What do you think?
2. I cut all the roots off and did hormone treatment, not leaving a lateral root. Was this the problem?
3. I planted to the depth of the cotyledons right on top of the soil. Was this not deep enough?
4. They were in a greenhouse.
5. The ones that died looked pretty bad very quickly
6. Should my Korean Hornbeams have better, similar, or worse results than maples on average?
7. Is there any reason a Scots pine should be any different than JBP in regard to seedling cuttings?
Yamabudoudanshi
Shohin
Not sure I can help with any of your ^ questions, but here's a general update on how these are doing.
With the clumps I've probably lost somewher between 10-20% of the trees in each. I imagine with the seedlings pushed together some just never grow substantial roots. I kind of expected this, hence the excessive numbers in each.
With the individuals however, I would say 90% of them are still alive. They've continued to push against the mesh and bend in some interesting ways. Can't see very many of them because there are so many.
Once I see some fall colors and they've finished growing for the year, I'll remove the mesh. Late winter, I'm planning on putting a few of the best individuals in tiny pots and spreading the rest out in the tray. From that point onward, I'll wire, prune, and repeat.
Overall, I'm pretty impressed with how well this has worked and plan on trying it with mostly tridents next season.
With the clumps I've probably lost somewher between 10-20% of the trees in each. I imagine with the seedlings pushed together some just never grow substantial roots. I kind of expected this, hence the excessive numbers in each.
With the individuals however, I would say 90% of them are still alive. They've continued to push against the mesh and bend in some interesting ways. Can't see very many of them because there are so many.
Once I see some fall colors and they've finished growing for the year, I'll remove the mesh. Late winter, I'm planning on putting a few of the best individuals in tiny pots and spreading the rest out in the tray. From that point onward, I'll wire, prune, and repeat.
Overall, I'm pretty impressed with how well this has worked and plan on trying it with mostly tridents next season.
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cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
THIS IS WAY COOL!!!
Oddly enough I gave this a shot last year.It is funny to find this.Of course it would have been tried in Japan.
I am considering this now again,but am trying to decide if it is better than what I have discovered in using 1.5” Grodan stonewool mini blocks.When a germinating seedling is planted in them it is put into the hole that can be pushed into the block like 75% of the way about 1.25” since the sprouts are usually getting long that I use.
The effect is instant air-pruning.The trees grow quite tall and inside the mini-block the trunk will swell to a bigger size and everything whilst maintaining quite a compact root system…..suprisingly compact!
So there it is…..I have decided to make at least a couple of these,but I see the seedlings being more success.
I hope these two methods and ideas will make more mini-clumps in the world!!!
I’m actually enthused to try this.
You can see how they can be dwarfed and made very twiggy in the little air-layers of zelkova……but again I wonder if seedling sprouts are just fine in the air-pruning stonewool mini-blocks.
Then you can see the Siberian Elm seedling,quite large and then just a little mass of densely air-pruned roots and a pheonominal swelling at the base of the trunk…….seedling air-layers were fun,but I deemed it totally unneccesary with this method……unless fine brooms or single trees are desired.
THANKS FOR POSTING YOUR FINDINGS!!!!
Oddly enough I gave this a shot last year.It is funny to find this.Of course it would have been tried in Japan.
I am considering this now again,but am trying to decide if it is better than what I have discovered in using 1.5” Grodan stonewool mini blocks.When a germinating seedling is planted in them it is put into the hole that can be pushed into the block like 75% of the way about 1.25” since the sprouts are usually getting long that I use.
The effect is instant air-pruning.The trees grow quite tall and inside the mini-block the trunk will swell to a bigger size and everything whilst maintaining quite a compact root system…..suprisingly compact!
So there it is…..I have decided to make at least a couple of these,but I see the seedlings being more success.
I hope these two methods and ideas will make more mini-clumps in the world!!!
I’m actually enthused to try this.
You can see how they can be dwarfed and made very twiggy in the little air-layers of zelkova……but again I wonder if seedling sprouts are just fine in the air-pruning stonewool mini-blocks.
Then you can see the Siberian Elm seedling,quite large and then just a little mass of densely air-pruned roots and a pheonominal swelling at the base of the trunk…….seedling air-layers were fun,but I deemed it totally unneccesary with this method……unless fine brooms or single trees are desired.
THANKS FOR POSTING YOUR FINDINGS!!!!
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
I am considering this for my winter project……I have Korean Hornbeam,Zelkova and local Trident Maple seeds stratifying already.
Although I’m a bit worried as I may have mixed the Korean Hornbeams…..I bought from two sources…one seems to be Coreana and the other the main variety Turczaninowii.The latter having a bit more open growth and longer salmon pink leaves.
Perhaps they’re all Coreana variety.
Zelkovas and Trident would work really good with this idea definately and zelkovas.Trident are tough to start indoors.I have to actually start them in cutting strength light but they are local seeds and sprout fast as well as the zelkova too will sprout as I’m harvesting from a local development nearby.
AND LETS NOT FORGET JAPANESE LARCH!!!!
Awesome thread you got here @Yamabudoudanshi
Thanks for posting your efforts.
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
Like put 9 or more of these into the planting cube! At this very,very early stage.
They may fuse quicker…..or tie together at the next up-pot.
They also sell 1” square stonewool cubes which could be a ++ for this.Very small cubes….I never tried them,but it may be the ticket that way can put tiny sprouts in there and tie with plastic very much lower and early for a lower branching starter.
And the blocks would be a whole 1/3 rd shallower at this early stage so to resemble the seedling-cutting effect.
They may fuse quicker…..or tie together at the next up-pot.
They also sell 1” square stonewool cubes which could be a ++ for this.Very small cubes….I never tried them,but it may be the ticket that way can put tiny sprouts in there and tie with plastic very much lower and early for a lower branching starter.
And the blocks would be a whole 1/3 rd shallower at this early stage so to resemble the seedling-cutting effect.
Last edited:
Yamabudoudanshi
Shohin
@cmeg1
You've made a great point about this being ideal for zelkova. Especially for little brooms, most growers out here start them from seed, develop the crown a bit, and then 5-6 years in they'll air layer the trunk to correct the roots and get the proportions right. Seems like cutting the seeding from the beginning good offer better/quicker results.
Makes me want to try zelkova from seed to find out.
You've made a great point about this being ideal for zelkova. Especially for little brooms, most growers out here start them from seed, develop the crown a bit, and then 5-6 years in they'll air layer the trunk to correct the roots and get the proportions right. Seems like cutting the seeding from the beginning good offer better/quicker results.
Makes me want to try zelkova from seed to find out.
Yamabudoudanshi
Shohin
^Are these 2 both individuals? Or clumps? They're both so dense, I can't tell.
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
They were Brooms that had short trunks……..am finding ways to get longer trunks.
I air-layered them.
Yamabudoudanshi
Shohin
End of year update on these.
A few months back, I cut off the thread that was binding these clumps together as it was biting in and throwing roots out all over.
Today, I went through and removed any leaves that hadent already dropped and carefully cut out any dead seedlings.
Out of the 5 that I made, here are some pictures of the best 2. The one in the white pot was originally made with 27 seedlings, and now there are not 17. The one in the blue pot was originally made with 22 seedlings, and now there are now 14. Not bad overall really.
After the clean up I wedged a few half toothpics in to redirect some of the badly crossing trunks.
Really hoping to try this out with tridents next year and see what I can make.
Additionally, if I ever make these again with Japanese maples I'd like to make some (huge) mini clumps as well. It might be fun to tie 50, 70, even 100 seedlings together in the same manner and see what you end up with.
Can't wait to see these continue to develop.
A few months back, I cut off the thread that was binding these clumps together as it was biting in and throwing roots out all over.
Today, I went through and removed any leaves that hadent already dropped and carefully cut out any dead seedlings.
Out of the 5 that I made, here are some pictures of the best 2. The one in the white pot was originally made with 27 seedlings, and now there are not 17. The one in the blue pot was originally made with 22 seedlings, and now there are now 14. Not bad overall really.
After the clean up I wedged a few half toothpics in to redirect some of the badly crossing trunks.
Really hoping to try this out with tridents next year and see what I can make.
Additionally, if I ever make these again with Japanese maples I'd like to make some (huge) mini clumps as well. It might be fun to tie 50, 70, even 100 seedlings together in the same manner and see what you end up with.
Can't wait to see these continue to develop.
Attachments
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
Wow!!
Appreciate the update.I was obviously excited for this thread you made.
I have proceeded with my own efforts as well,inspired by your projects and explanation.
Nice thread @Yamabudoudanshi
I also have Amur Maple and Korean Hornbeam sprouting now too and am planting them too like the Siberian Elms.
I’m excited to see the results and how they will be similiar to the cuttings that your doing.
I’m making loads of these over winter.
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
Yamabudoudanshi
Shohin
Very cool what you're doing with hydroponic supplies and techniques. Some of thos are going to make great far forests. Will be interesting to see how they develop if kept together.
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
That is funny you mention this because I think the Korean Hornbeam may be mixed with regular Turzaninovii with salmon pink leaves and the Coreana variation.I can tell by the size of the seeds.
I will probably just pluck out the more sporadic ones for the most dominant.
This should not be a problem since there are 15 seedlings per block.
And then just replant.
Reisterbrau
Seed
Wow! I'm in the Pacific Northwest (North America) I wouldn't expect growth like that for 2 to 3 years or even more.Seedling cuttings started from seed last August, 8 months old. How’s that for low buds
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