scotch vs japanese white pine

[Joe2758]

I have the bonsai today master series book on pines. Can I apply the info on JWP to my Scots pines for the most part?

 

[ShimpakuBonsai]

There is a difference between single (one) flush pines and two flush pines.
JBP and JRP are two flush pines and JWP and Scots pine are single flush pines.

Some more info about this: https://www.bonsaiempire.com/tree-species/pines

 

[Japonicus]

Can I apply the info on JWP to my Scots pines for the most part?

I haven't worked on my Scots pine at all, but as mentioned above it is a single flush pine
as is the JWP. I'm only chiming in to say the JWP appears to be more disease tolerant than
the Scots or other 2 needle pines like Mugo and JBP, and...

...As for the culmination of multiple artists in the not so much a "book" from Bonsai Today/Stone Lantern
it can be very confusing, with different artists input. I find this series incomplete.
You're better suited to find an artist who's trees you like, and who has been cultivating their trees for years,
and try to follow their techniques, than to try to follow this series only. Any bonsai workshops in your area?

Where are you located? Grow zones above 7 aren't best suited for JWP, especially as the climate is warming.

 

[penumbra]

JWP appears to be more disease tolerant than
the Scots or other 2 needle pines like Mugo and JBP

so very true

Grow zones above 7 aren't best suited for JWP

again, very true

 

[Shibui]

Grow zones above 7 aren't best suited for JWP, especially as the climate is warming.

Where does this zone 7 limit for JWP come from?
I have quite a few now that seem to be doing well in what I believe is zone 9.

 

[eugenev2]

Where does this zone 7 limit for JWP come from?
I have quite a few now that seem to be doing well in what I believe is zone 9.

Is this a grafted white pine or own root stock? Intrested as might put white pine back on the table for me

 

[Shibui]

Is this a grafted white pine or own root stock? Intrested as might put white pine back on the table for me

I have both. Started out with 3 seedlings germinated from seed collected in Tasmanian Botanic gardens. I've since grafted some on JBP and grown more as cuttings from the original seedlings. The older seedlings are around 15 years old now and appear to be growing strong.

 

[Joe2758]

Thanks for everyone's input! I have a couple additional questions:

If I grow scotch pine from seed directly in the ground, will I have problems digging it back out later because of the more sensitive roots? I am much more confident with how deciduous species respond.

My plan is to plant my stratified seeds this spring, cut the tap root next spring, then grow in the ground for a few more years. Any thoughts?

p.s. I have the same question regarding eastern larch

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

If I grow scotch pine from seed directly in the ground, will I have problems digging it back out later because of the more sensitive roots? I am much more confident with how deciduous species respond.

Wait.. Scots pines and sensitive roots?! It's one of the pines with an insane distribution range; Mediterranean to Siberia.
Scots pine roots are the least sensitive to disturbances if you'd ask me. Maybe EWP is tougher.. but compared to JWP, scots is way easier to work with.
Grow them on a tile though if you have the chance.

 

[Joe2758]

Wait.. Scots pines and sensitive roots?! It's one of the pines with an insane distribution range; Mediterranean to Siberia.
Scots pine roots are the least sensitive to disturbances if you'd ask me. Maybe EWP is tougher.. but compared to JWP, scots is way easier to work with.
Grow them on a tile though if you have the chance.

Best news I've heard all week!

How far below the seed for the tiles?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I don't know, I've never planted on tiles but I plan on digging my ground plants up and putting a tile down at about 5-6 inches down. Because they're in a remote location that I don't plan on watering very often.
You can go shallower. But make sure you do some root cutting in spring next year so that it's not just one large root going to the side of the tile and plugging itself into the ground. I think @Shibui recently made a thread on some root cuts.

 

[AaronThomas]

You know you have problems when you get excited about a post that at first glance reads...

scotch vs japanese white wine​

 

[Joe2758]

You know you have problems when you get excited about a post that at first glance reads...

scotch vs japanese white wine​

lol that one's a no-brainer

 

[Japonicus]

Where does this zone 7 limit for JWP come from?
I have quite a few now that seem to be doing well in what I believe is zone 9.

Pinus parviflora / Japanese white pine | Conifer Species | American Conifer Society

subgenus Strobus (Lemmon), section Quinquefoliae (Duhamel), subsection Strobus (Loudon).Pinus parviflora, first described in 1842 by Philipp Franz von Siebold (1796…

conifersociety.org

Japanese white pine | The Morton Arboretum

To plant and protect trees for a greener, healthier, and more beautiful world

mortonarb.org

Just what I've read and others have expressed on the forum.
The only experience I have with the hardiness grow zone is visual as we travel South
towards a warmer climate and not seeing white pine trees in the stands of trees anymore.
They tend to disappear in common and professional landscapes and distributing vendors
the further South we go into Floridas Northwest panhandle.

 

[Japonicus]

I have both. Started out with 3 seedlings germinated from seed collected in Tasmanian Botanic gardens. I've since grafted some on JBP and grown more as cuttings from the original seedlings. The older seedlings are around 15 years old now and appear to be growing strong.

This is awesome good news to me, given your experience of 15 years with JWP on their own roots in zone 9.
I was going to ask for how long you had kept yours. From my cultivation of research, I would place JWP or any other WP
in the same hardiness zone as mugo pine.
I hope not to confuse the OP on the hardiness factor, and should I move in my retirement, to a warmer zone
perhaps I should not be so quick to vacate my few trees that are recommended for a colder climate.
I believe @Dav4 might have expressed issues when he moved South. My memories on his change of climate are vague at best.
AdairM is in Georgia and has internationally recognized JWP.
Where is Adair?

 

[Japonicus]

putting a tile down at about 5-6 inches down

This depends on the thickness of the nebari when you're done trimming it.
In trying to develop the nebari, you may depending on the size of the root mass
start with a smaller tile, so as to not pile soil up on the trunk.

Here is an EWP on a 12" tile that was never lifted and trimmed.
I had decided to keep it as a landscape tree, until I didn't.
This tile is about 4" down I suppose, it came in a 3 gallon nursery can
when I planted it 10 years prior to this picture. Note the damage on the trunk
from leaving the plastic ID band on during grow out. Otherwise, the bark was really nice.
So @Wires_Guy_wires you might use a smaller 4 or 6" tile allowing the roots to drape over the edge
to seek moisture, then increase the tile size as the nebari develops rather than burying it too deep initially.
Just depends on what you have to work with.

 

[Shibui]

I plan on digging my ground plants up and putting a tile down at about 5-6 inches down. Because they're in a remote location that I don't plan on watering very often.

What is the point of a tile so deep. Seems pointless as a means to develop nebari or limit dept of roots to match bonsai pots because most bonsai pots will be less than 5" deep?
You've also noted that Scots pine handles root pruning really well. In my experience root pruning is a much more precise and reliable tool to develop better nebari than tiles but tiles seem to be on everyone's agenda. Why not just do good root pruning before planting then again each time you dig?

From my cultivation of research, I would place JWP or any other WP
in the same hardiness zone as mugo pine.

I also have one much older mugho pine on the benches growing happily here.

Just what I've read and others have expressed on the forum.

This is what I expected. Need to be very wary of just quoting anecdotal reports as they soon become lore from constant repetition despite no real evidence.
Sometimes I wonder if the cold climate growers tell us things like this simply to justify why they choose live in such brutal conditions LOL.

.

 

[Dav4]

This depends on the thickness of the nebari when you're done trimming it.
In trying to develop the nebari, you may depending on the size of the root mass
start with a smaller tile, so as to not pile soil up on the trunk.
View attachment 472514
Here is an EWP on a 12" tile that was never lifted and trimmed.
I had decided to keep it as a landscape tree, until I didn't.
This tile is about 4" down I suppose, it came in a 3 gallon nursery can
when I planted it 10 years prior to this picture. Note the damage on the trunk
from leaving the plastic ID band on during grow out. Otherwise, the bark was really nice.
So @Wires_Guy_wires you might use a smaller 4 or 6" tile allowing the roots to drape over the edge
to seek moisture, then increase the tile size as the nebari develops rather than burying it too deep initially.
Just depends on what you have to work with.

Much to my surprise, I found JWP to grow just fine in the metro Atlanta area. I was initially under the impression they would potentially suffer from the long, hot and humid summers and short and not so cold winters. They, in fact, proved easier to grow than my JBP, who grew well but suffered from needle cast and spider mites regularly while the JWP were essentially pest free. I never grew P. sylvestris while in GA. Adair does indeed grow some fantastic JWP in GA, but he's further north and at a higher altitude which suits JWP and other alpine species even more.

 

[Fidur]

This is what I expected. Need to be very wary of just quoting anecdotal reports as they soon become lore from constant repetition despite no real evidence.
Sometimes I wonder if the cold climate growers tell us things like this simply to justify why they choose live in such brutal conditions LOL.

.

I'm also on this side.
Here in my 11b climate, I know of 3 JWP growing successfully for at least 15 years



Also it is a personal (risky) bet, as I'm the owner of this one



I think (hope) altitude (wich is over 600m) could be a key factor.

 

[john blanch]

You know you have problems when you get excited about a post that at first glance reads...

scotch vs japanese white wine​

Mmm the spelling mistake truly had my dander up!