Ryan Neal article in The New Yorker

[Mikecheck123]

Now I want to see Ryan playing bball.

 

[ChefB]

When I saw that article beginning to make the rounds, I fully expected to see rockm post a link to it.

I’ve quickly come to appreciate this. Thanks for another one rockm.

 

[clem]

I didn't know that Ryan Neil had chronic back pain and artritis in this fingers + psychological sequelae of his apprenticeship + financial difficulties despite the thousands of Mirai subscribers.
I'd be interested to know if Bjorn Bjornholm apprenticeship was the same, with the same painful consequences :/

 

[Ruddigger]

Bjorns situation was very different, with a different oyakata. Kimura was an entirely different animal.

 

[ajm55555]

That article kind of puts some perspective on Kimura. Definitely takes some of the mystery out of him. Sounds like a complete dick...The "maggots at the bottom of the toilet" remark about U.S. bonsai is special.

This Japanese way of doing bonsai is history for me (my opinion, everyone is free to follow their own rules). I prefer Walter Pall's philosophy.

 

[rockm]

This Japanese way of doing bonsai is history for me (my opinion, everyone is free to follow their own rules). I prefer Walter Pall's philosophy.

FWIW, Kimura followed much the same thought. He aimed to break traditions as well.

 

[ajm55555]

FWIW, Kimura followed much the same thought. He aimed to break traditions as well.

I didn't know that, I'll read more, thanks. Then I just don't like his implementation ;-)

 

[Bonsai Nut]

FWIW, Kimura followed much the same thought. He aimed to break traditions as well.

It would be impossible to paint America or Americans with a single brush. Most of the time I don't understand my neighbors here - let alone people living in another state. When I lived in Germany, people always told me "you're not like other Americans". I would ask "how many other Americans do you know?" "None." Many people outside of this country only get their opinions from what they see on television. On another occasion I was talking to some villagers in Fiji, and when they learned I lived in Los Angeles they wanted to know how Tom Cruise was doing. They really thought I knew him - because in their culture everyone in a village knows everyone else.

I did a big business deal with a company in Japan that required me to present to their board of directors. It was a four hour presentation with an interpreter in a packed room full of senior managers, junior managers, underlings, cigarette smoke. When I was done, they approved the deal, and were very complimentary. "You're not like other Americans - this presentation was exactly the same way we would do our own presentations". I just smiled and thanked them. When my host casually mentioned that I kept bonsai in the US the look of surprise was something I will never forget.

 

[penumbra]

This is a real gem^^^^

 

[Underdog]

Thanks for sharing. Very enlightening.

 

[ABCarve]

FWIW, Kimura followed much the same thought. He aimed to break traditions as well.

As an artist, it takes a huge ego to be creative and buck the status quo. To swim upstream and tell the world there is something else to see. However, I’ve found that to be an effective teacher you need to leave your ego at home. To allow students to develop their own vision. Maybe he didn’t understand that and his is the only way?

 

[rockm]

It would be impossible to paint America or Americans with a single brush. Most of the time I don't understand my neighbors here - let alone people living in another state. When I lived in Germany, people always told me "you're not like other Americans". I would ask "how many other Americans do you know?" "None." Many people outside of this country only get their opinions from what they see on television. On another occasion I was talking to some villagers in Fiji, and when they learned I lived in Los Angeles they wanted to know how Tom Cruise was doing. They really thought I knew him - because in their culture everyone in a village knows everyone else.

I did a big business deal with a company in Japan that required me to present to their board of directors. It was a four hour presentation with an interpretor in a packed room full of senior managers, junior managers, underlings, cigarette smoke. When I was done, they approved the deal, and were very complimentary. "You're not like other Americans - this presentation was exactly the same way we would do our own presentations". I just smiled and thanked them. When my host casually mentioned that I kept bonsai in the US the look of surprise was something I will never forget.

It is impossible to paint Americans with a single brush, BUT in my experience at the Japanese conglomerate, they did. I believe that was kind of an assumption made from the point of view of the mostly provincial attitude fostered by geography and culture. Japan is a homogenous society based in a landmass significantly tinier than the U.S. Like a lot of the world, they really didn't comprehend how BIG the U.S. is and how diverse. They saw diversity not really a "problem" but an obstacle to getting things done. That you were "like minded" was a plus to them, but don't make the mistake of thinking you were judged to be different. The assumption was you were just another American going in. Also compliments are part of the dance.

 

[Srt8madness]

It would be impossible to paint America or Americans with a single brush. Most of the time I don't understand my neighbors here - let alone people living in another state. When I lived in Germany, people always told me "you're not like other Americans". I would ask "how many other Americans do you know?" "None." Many people outside of this country only get their opinions from what they see on television. On another occasion I was talking to some villagers in Fiji, and when they learned I lived in Los Angeles they wanted to know how Tom Cruise was doing. They really thought I knew him - because in their culture everyone in a village knows everyone else.

I did a big business deal with a company in Japan that required me to present to their board of directors. It was a four hour presentation with an interpretor in a packed room full of senior managers, junior managers, underlings, cigarette smoke. When I was done, they approved the deal, and were very complimentary. "You're not like other Americans - this presentation was exactly the same way we would do our own presentations". I just smiled and thanked them. When my host casually mentioned that I kept bonsai in the US the look of surprise was something I will never forget.

You missed a real opportunity there on Fiji

 

[Srt8madness]

I feel like there was an event that Japan and Germany were involved it that laid waste the idea of their racial superiority...ahh idk it'll come to me.

Back to the OP, great article, well written of course. I'm not a Mirai fanboi or hater, but it was nice to get some insight on someone so prominent in the US Bonsai world.

 

[Maros]

Very good article, thanks for sharing. To me personally, some things are outright shocking. Just from curiosity, I would like to know how much of the behavior towards Ryan was possibly driven by racism and/or how much events during WWII possibly influenced it in one way or another.

 

[jandslegate]

Very good article, thanks for sharing. To me personally, some things are outright shocking. Just from curiosity, I would like to know how much of the behavior towards Ryan was possibly driven by racism and/or how much events during WWII possibly influenced it in one way or another.

I mean it seems both of those things are factors. Also, that Kimura is his own person and not all of those aspects are necessarily 'good'.

 

[ajm55555]

It would be impossible to paint America or Americans with a single brush. Most of the time I don't understand my neighbors here - let alone people living in another state. When I lived in Germany, people always told me "you're not like other Americans". I would ask "how many other Americans do you know?" "None." Many people outside of this country only get their opinions from what they see on television. On another occasion I was talking to some villagers in Fiji, and when they learned I lived in Los Angeles they wanted to know how Tom Cruise was doing. They really thought I knew him - because in their culture everyone in a village knows everyone else.

I did a big business deal with a company in Japan that required me to present to their board of directors. It was a four hour presentation with an interpretor in a packed room full of senior managers, junior managers, underlings, cigarette smoke. When I was done, they approved the deal, and were very complimentary. "You're not like other Americans - this presentation was exactly the same way we would do our own presentations". I just smiled and thanked them. When my host casually mentioned that I kept bonsai in the US the look of surprise was something I will never forget.

How not to agree! But it is possible to identify some general traits in a population that are in existence because everyone lives in a determined environment.
Example:

• the accent you acquire growing up
• the way people drive
• if pedestrians stop on a red light when no car is on sight
• the way you move your hands when you talk
• the volume of conversations on a bus
• ...

I think this also apply to taste, art, ... and bonsai.

 

[Brim Gribley]

Now I want to see Ryan playing bball.

I wanna see him Dj, lol

 

[Sansokuu]

The Japanese bonsai community were extremely unhappy with the translations used in the article, and found a lot of the wording exaggerated and in some cases simply untrue. The translator and Kimura requested a number of changes that were ignored. The translator was Makiko Koba and you can see her side of things on her facebook in a translated post that I have quoted here:

Makiko Koba (translated from original japanese):

Interviewed in May 2017, The New Yoker columnist Robert Moor's article appeared today after five years. At the time, as a currency, and this week, I've been racing to fact-checking between The New Yorker editorial department and Masataka Kimura, and the authors. Unfortunately some are not edited and covered.

The article consists of interviews with Ryan and the author, and there are certainly differences in Japanese-American culture and ideology. This story goes back more than 15 years in Japan, where the US is extremely strict on human rights and discrimination issues, and the old practices still linger in life, but Ryan's experience of his six-year training in Japan will change greatly depending on the reader's nationality. Some people may receive it negatively.

For the past few months, I've been spending days that can make me think deeply about Japan's apprenticeship system and human rights through Okinawa. I'd be happy if you could give me your sincere thoughts.

The New Yorker's interview with Robert Moor in May 2017 is finally out today. I was an interpreter at the time, and I have been busy this past week fact-checking between The New Yorker's editorial department, Master Masahiko Kimura, and the author. Unfortunately, some of the facts were not corrected in the article. The publisher denied to fix the wrong contents.

The article is constructed around the interviews between Ryan and the author, and there are inevitably differences in culture and thought between Japan and the United States. In the U.S., where human rights and discrimination issues are very important and essential, and in Japan, where old customs still persist in our daily life, Ryan's experience during his six years of apprenticeship in Japan, more than 15 years ago, though, may vary greatly depending on the reader's nationality and background. For some, it may be perceived negatively.

In the past few months, I have been deeply reflecting on the Japanese apprenticeship system, human rights, and other issues through bonsai.

On behalf of Master Kimura and Kimura school, I explain a bit more about it.
In countries influenced by Confucianism, elders are absolute, especially in the apprentice system, where the master is like a god. Especially in Japan, until the Edo period, each clan (now called a prefecture) had its own lord, who was absolutely different in status from the common people. The apprentice system is similar to this, and the apprentices could never talk back to the master. Some Unmotivated apprentices or those who did not learn well were disciplined strictly by their masters or senior apprentices, who would beat, slap, (not in all gardens), scold them. Of course, times have changed. Now there is no physical punishment in any bonsai gardens in Japan.

I would be very grateful if you could give me your honest opinion.
—————


Overall I didn’t find anything beneficial to the bonsai community from this article since physical punishment is no longer practiced in Japan as Makiko points out. Seems like a deeply personal experience that should have been left that way, though with toxic masculinity so prevalent in the U.S., good for Ryan for speaking out, but it seems distasteful to have done so through a major publication as opposed to a personal account. Just feels weird.

 

[Ruddigger]

The article was about one mans experience, and that was part of it. The article did point out that physical punishment is no longer practiced.

I dont see the issue.