Roots or shoots?!?!

BonjourBonsai

Chumono
Messages
681
Reaction score
725
Location
Maryland, USA
USDA Zone
7a
So when do you start on an awesome juniper with a big fat trunk bought from a box store that is wholly root bound? Do you 1. Work the roots and get it into a training pot first, wait a few years for recovery and then style, 2. Work the shoots and style it drastically then let it regain vigor and then work the roots down, or 3. a combination of both? And for the $64,000 question. WHEN?
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20211017_120652800.jpg
    IMG_20211017_120652800.jpg
    307.6 KB · Views: 63
  • IMG_20211017_120646143.jpg
    IMG_20211017_120646143.jpg
    261.7 KB · Views: 62

Shibui

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,682
Reaction score
15,493
Location
Yackandandah, Australia
USDA Zone
9?
For me roots are always the priority. The tree is unlikely to get sick or die from long branches but may well die from being badly root bound so I'd do the roots first.
I've had no problem doing some judicious pruning of branches in conjunction with root pruning provided there are some good strong leaders left to grow somewhere up top.
Unless the tree is exceptionally weak or conditions really poor I doubt you'll need to wait 2 years before further work. If the tree responds well to root pruning (and most trees do grow much better following root prune and fresh soil) you could be doing some serious styling by late next summer or the following spring ie 6 months - 1 year but its not the calendar that dictates what we do. Let the tree guide you.
Timing: I prefer to root prune junipers later in spring but that's mainly because I have so much work to do on deciduous at the start of spring. Any time in your normal repotting window will be OK for junipers but repotting windows vary depending on your location so I have no idea what months are appropriate for Maryland.
 

BonjourBonsai

Chumono
Messages
681
Reaction score
725
Location
Maryland, USA
USDA Zone
7a
For me roots are always the priority. The tree is unlikely to get sick or die from long branches but may well die from being badly root bound so I'd do the roots first.
I've had no problem doing some judicious pruning of branches in conjunction with root pruning provided there are some good strong leaders left to grow somewhere up top.
Unless the tree is exceptionally weak or conditions really poor I doubt you'll need to wait 2 years before further work. If the tree responds well to root pruning (and most trees do grow much better following root prune and fresh soil) you could be doing some serious styling by late next summer or the following spring ie 6 months - 1 year but its not the calendar that dictates what we do. Let the tree guide you.
Timing: I prefer to root prune junipers later in spring but that's mainly because I have so much work to do on deciduous at the start of spring. Any time in your normal repotting window will be OK for junipers but repotting windows vary depending on your location so I have no idea what months are appropriate for Maryland.
Thanks @Shibui ! It seems that the more I work with trees the less I am certain about.

I'll plan to repot and remove up to 30% of root mass this spring.

Would the optimal time be before or after new growth appears?
 

penumbra

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,460
Reaction score
16,120
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
Roots, now is good, 2 or 3 weeks is better if you can't protect it.
 

Katie0317

Chumono
Messages
860
Reaction score
1,042
Location
Central Florida
USDA Zone
9B
Was going to wait and take it to a workshop but was wondering if people here could help?

I have a large sea hibiscus bonsai and a shohin harland boxwood that have large root masses on top of the soil and under the tree. Am not worried about the boxwood because I know they're prone to this and can 'take it.' Bought these as bonsai in this condition and didn't know enough at the time to ask how to manage it when I repotted.

Don't know how to go about pruning the top of the soil under a bonsai tree when I'm repotting? Have you ever had to do it and how did you do it? Just rake it out with a hook but then how would you prune it?

Maybe it would make more sense once I started but I don't want to start something that I don't know how to do! Thanks for your input.
 

Katie0317

Chumono
Messages
860
Reaction score
1,042
Location
Central Florida
USDA Zone
9B
@penumbra I'll try and get some shots tomorrow. Thanks for taking a look.

My husband said the bottom of the sea hibiscus was not root bound which is odd to me. I don't understand how they couldn't be. He didn't seem to think they were. He has a lot less to do with the trees than I do but the sea hibiscus is one he picked out and repotted it when I wasn't here. I hadn't known he was going to do it and he hadn't realized the situation on top of the tree needed to be addressed at the same time so it's a bit of a concern to me now. Concern in that I'm not sure how to take care of the top which I know needs to be addressed.

We have a class next weekend but I'd like to resolve this one on our own...We have other trees I'd like to work on in class.
 

Shibui

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,682
Reaction score
15,493
Location
Yackandandah, Australia
USDA Zone
9?
Thanks @Shibui ! It seems that the more I work with trees the less I am certain about.

I'll plan to repot and remove up to 30% of root mass this spring.

Would the optimal time be before or after new growth appears?
Being unsure is a sure thing when working with living organisms. Individuals respond differently to the same things. Response in different seasons can vary. Response in different conditions can also vary. No wonder there is such a proliferation of opinions on the net. Uncertainty is one of the few certain things.

30% root reduction is moderate in my experience so no problem IMHO.

There's no such thing as optimal time. In my experience there's a wide window of opportunity. Immediately before new growth is good. The few weeks after new growth appears also seems good. Weeks before new growth is OK depending on how cold winters are and how suddenly and reliably spring occurs in your location. I see an increasing number of growers talking about late summer as a good time to root prune but have not yet tried that to confirm.
 

BonjourBonsai

Chumono
Messages
681
Reaction score
725
Location
Maryland, USA
USDA Zone
7a
30% root reduction is moderate in my experience so no problem IMHO.
Last August, I repotted some nursery mugos that we similarly root bound. I literally sawed off the bottom half of the roots. 5 out of 6 are looking fine. I was too aggressive with pruning the branches on the one that did not survive.

Do you think that sawing off half off half the root ball on a juniper would also work?
 

Katie0317

Chumono
Messages
860
Reaction score
1,042
Location
Central Florida
USDA Zone
9B
@penumbra I spoke out of line about our sea hibiscus. When my husband showed it to me this morning I saw what he had done by just looking under a small bit of akadama on top. He had worked the roots with a chopstick and cut the thick ones and spread them out over a rock. Leatherback posted a photo today on 'Akadama no water' and it shows what roots look like on top of a pre bonsai tree planted in dirt and the roots are on top of the soil. The roots were much more fibrous on the sea hibiscus than the tree in his photo and most fibrous of all on the tiny hardland boxwood (no photo). I need to get a root hook for that and a few others.

A question that occurred to me while I was talking with my husband. He said because the sea hibiscus had been air layered the tap root was much bigger than the one on a cutting would be...Or implied it or I assumed that's what he meant without asking.

It got me to wondering, does air layering a large plant like a sea hibiscus (and a sea hibiscus is larger than any landscaping hibiscus I've ever seen) cause it to grow a larger tap root when it's potted in a pre-bonsai pot with dirt than one grown in dirt from a cutting?
 

penumbra

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,460
Reaction score
16,120
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
What counts as adequate protection? Is an attached garage enough in your opinion?
Yes, that is plenty of protection as far as protecting from any intense cold. But you are walking a fine line here because it is about time for these plants to be waking up and this is something you don't want the plant to do in a dark garage.
 

penumbra

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,460
Reaction score
16,120
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
It got me to wondering, does air layering a large plant like a sea hibiscus (and a sea hibiscus is larger than any landscaping hibiscus I've ever seen) cause it to grow a larger tap root when it's potted in a pre-bonsai pot with dirt than one grown in dirt from a cutting?
Not that I am aware of. In fact I don't think a rooted plant can have a true taproot. Taproots are the single anchoring root from seed grown plants. Boxwood don't have taproots at all.
 

Katie0317

Chumono
Messages
860
Reaction score
1,042
Location
Central Florida
USDA Zone
9B
My husband just explained my misunderstanding about the roots on an air layer! He had to cut the branch that the bonsai nursery left behind...not a tap root! So forget the confusion and question about the difference in a tap root on an air layer and a cutting! I was upside down and backwards on that.
 

Katie0317

Chumono
Messages
860
Reaction score
1,042
Location
Central Florida
USDA Zone
9B
Not that I am aware of. In fact I don't think a rooted plant can have a true taproot. Taproots are the single anchoring root from seed grown plants. Boxwood don't have taproots at all.
Thanks Penumbra. I hadn't realized that most plants don't have tap roots. I thought most did. It will be interesting to see what's underneath the huge mass of roots on top of the soil under the boxwood. More roots I'm sure. It's growing like there's no problem but clearly it needs to be repotted. Am just waiting to buy a root hook at the nursery where I take classes.
 

Shibui

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,682
Reaction score
15,493
Location
Yackandandah, Australia
USDA Zone
9?
Last August, I repotted some nursery mugos that we similarly root bound. I literally sawed off the bottom half of the roots. 5 out of 6 are looking fine. I was too aggressive with pruning the branches on the one that did not survive.

Do you think that sawing off half off half the root ball on a juniper would also work?
There are many issues at work every time we repot, not just root reduction but conditions in the weeks following, health of the plant before, species, etc.
I 1would not hesitate to remove half roots of the junipers I grow - shimpaku and J, procumbens 'Nana'. Some species may not be so tolerant. Conditions at your place may be different after repot so hard to be definitive.
Certainly removing too much foliage can affect recovery after root pruning especially for pines and junipers as you've found with the mughos. I've learned that leaving some intact growing leaders helps plants recover after root pruning and removing too much can reduce survival so now I do reduce branches but make sure some entire branches are left to encourage new roots and recovery.

Always check where lateral roots start growing on the trunk. I've been caught where trees have been potted at the bottom of the larger pot, new roots grow up and fill the soil so it appears there are good roots but sawing off the lower half end up with roots in one hand and trunk with no roots in the other hand. Always dig down to check for good lateral roots before deciding where to saw through the root mass.
 
Top Bottom