Root Grafting vs. Ground Layering

[DrTolhur]

I have a pretty nice Japanese maple that I like everything above the nebari, but that part leaves much to be desired. Obviously ground layering is an option, but that's a pretty drastic all-or-nothing decision. It's too nice of a tree for me to be comfortable risking a full ground layer to reestablish the roots (I've never tried a ground layer, but I've had pretty pathetic results with air layers), so I was considering manually grafting a new set of roots on above the problem area. I have only ever come across people doing root grafting as a means of adding or filling in roots rather than fully replacing. Is this something anyone has done before? Is it less risky than ground layering?

I'm not as into nebari as most bonsai folks are, so if I can't reset the roots with minimal risk, then I'll just deal with it as is, maybe bury it a tad deeper to hide more of it. Just curious as to others' thoughts on root grafting to reset the roots/nebari.

 

[bwaynef]

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/failed-airlayer.59239/ <-- I got tired of waiting on a trident to cooperate after 3-4 years and threadgrafted roots from seedlings. That said, I'd failed 3-4 years, 5-6x. If I had it to do all over again, I'd probably still try to airlayer it before threadgrafting roots. I just may not have been so stubborn about making the airlayer work. I believe I mentioned in that thread, the only times I've had an airlayer fail was on tridents. (Though I've successfully airlayered tridents as well.) I've never failed w/ a Japanese Maple.

I'd suggest trying the layer. If it works, you'll be way ahead of the game. If it doesn't work, its not likely to kill the tree, and you can always try to thread graft roots later.

 

[River's Edge]

I have a pretty nice Japanese maple that I like everything above the nebari, but that part leaves much to be desired. Obviously ground layering is an option, but that's a pretty drastic all-or-nothing decision. It's too nice of a tree for me to be comfortable risking a full ground layer to reestablish the roots (I've never tried a ground layer, but I've had pretty pathetic results with air layers), so I was considering manually grafting a new set of roots on above the problem area. I have only ever come across people doing root grafting as a means of adding or filling in roots rather than fully replacing. Is this something anyone has done before? Is it less risky than ground layering?

I'm not as into nebari as most bonsai folks are, so if I can't reset the roots with minimal risk, then I'll just deal with it as is, maybe bury it a tad deeper to hide more of it. Just curious as to others' thoughts on root grafting to reset the roots/nebari.

Theoretically, why not? Would have to be done in such a way as to not end up with an artificial look! How about a picture of the tree you are considering. Might help others consider your inquiry more in depth.

 

[Tieball]

A photo, or two, or three, of this fabulous tree and not-so-awesome roots would really be helpful. Maybe…..the roots are not as bad as you think.

 

[DrTolhur]

Photos for reference, though I don't think it's really very relevant since I'm just curious about root grafting vs. ground layering. The specific tree isn't that important in comparing the viability of the practices. It's a Sharp's Pygmy, if that's of any value.

 

[River's Edge]

Right the photos are of no value. Sorry to trouble you.

 

[DrTolhur]

Right the photos are of no value. Sorry to trouble you.

If my response caused offence, that was not my intention. It's just that I'm looking for information regarding root grafting as a means to reset the root base wholesale compared to layering, ideally from people who have experience to draw/explain from. I'm not looking for advice on what I should do with this particular tree, and I'm afraid posting pictures will lead people to giving specific suggestions, getting away from my actual inquiry.

 

[DrTolhur]

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/failed-airlayer.59239/ <-- I got tired of waiting on a trident to cooperate after 3-4 years and threadgrafted roots from seedlings. That said, I'd failed 3-4 years, 5-6x. If I had it to do all over again, I'd probably still try to airlayer it before threadgrafting roots. I just may not have been so stubborn about making the airlayer work. I believe I mentioned in that thread, the only times I've had an airlayer fail was on tridents. (Though I've successfully airlayered tridents as well.) I've never failed w/ a Japanese Maple.

I'd suggest trying the layer. If it works, you'll be way ahead of the game. If it doesn't work, its not likely to kill the tree, and you can always try to thread graft roots later.

Interesting. I haven't heard of thread grafting roots. Why did you do that instead of the standard parallel-style root grafting I typically see?

 

[bwaynef]

If by parallel you mean approach grafting, the scion material I had (that is, the seedlings) were prohibitively small for something like that.

 

[dr.tenebris]

Interesting. I haven't heard of thread grafting roots. Why did you do that instead of the standard parallel-style root grafting I typically see?

Can't speak for bwaynef, but thread grafting is a fairly safe method (for larger trees at least) as you keep the tree alive while you let the graft heal, It works for both root grafts and branches as your basically drilling a hole about the same size as the whip and putting it through the hole,

The whip will try to thicken and and older tree will try to close the wound causing a fusion with reduced rejection rates..

I've strongly considered this method for my large cherry tree but my local nursery doesn't grow whips unfortunately!

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Groundlayer is easier than air imo, I'd certainly go that route vs attempting a bunch of grafts

Here's where I documented one.

Thread 'Hacks Sharp's Pygmy A.P. Progression' https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/hacks-sharps-pygmy-a-p-progression.61894/

 

[DrTolhur]

Groundlayer is easier than air imo, I'd certainly go that route vs attempting a bunch of grafts

What makes a ground layer easier than air layer? Do you just mean logistically managing the set-up (since it's mostly just piling up substrate rather than affixing some contraption and managing moisture levels), or easier to actually get good results?

 

[Hack Yeah!]

What makes a ground layer easier than air layer? Do you just mean logistically managing the set-up (since it's mostly just piling up substrate rather than affixing some contraption and managing moisture levels), or easier to actually get good results?

I think easier logistically, you just pot your tree in something deeper for a year and continue to enjoy and work the canopy

 

[Shibui]

Obviously ground layering is an option, but that's a pretty drastic all-or-nothing decision. It's too nice of a tree for me to be comfortable risking a full ground layer to reestablish the roots

Ground layer is not as difficult or risky as you seem to be implying.

Grafting roots is not always as smooth as some would have you believe.
I have some tridents with large scars around the base where the scions were cut off and are very slow to heal over. Even thread grafted roots can have similar results. With layer there's no trunks to cut so no visible scars.
No intervention is 100% guaranteed. Approach grafts do not always succeed. Sometimes the graft works but leaves scars afterward. I've had thread grafted roots where the top part survived but the root part didn't = scars and no new roots!
Maybe it is just the way I do it but just warning that any one way is not necessarily fool proof.

 

[andrewiles]

Yep, I agree with those who suggest ground layering. I think you're going to struggle to get a good nebari with root grafting, and it will take a long time to heal the scars. You'll also need a lot of grafts to span the entire trunk. Years and years of work. With a ground layer you'll have a good start on a nice radial nebari in a year. If it were my tree I would air layer without hesitation.

Sharp's Pygmy will air layer fairly easily, so you have a high chance of success. If you've had trouble with air layers in the past I suggest trying to root cause what those problems were and try to rectify that before ground layering this one, assuming you go that route. While you can certainly kill the tree, if you go through the layering steps properly, and handle aftercare, success rate should be near 100%. You could even practice a few more layers on other trees in your yard or nursery stock this year, to build confidence for this tree next year.

One final option. You can successfully layer the tree without cutting through the cambium. If you constrict it with tight wire you can eventually induce roots to form above the constriction. It would probably take an extra year or two, depending on how fast the tree is growing, and you're less likely to get full radial roots. But it can work and is probably safer than girdling the tree. I would still prefer a ground layer though.

 

[DrTolhur]

Thanks for the input, all. Sounds like full root grafting isn't the way to go, so I'll either need to accept the root base as it is or see if I'm willing to try a ground layer to fix it. If I do try it, I think practicing ground layers on other unimportant trees first is a good idea.

 

[Dav4]

Thanks for the input, all. Sounds like full root grafting isn't the way to go, so I'll either need to accept the root base as it is or see if I'm willing to try a ground layer to fix it. If I do try it, I think practicing ground layers on other unimportant trees first is a good idea.

I'll just add here that ground layering is pretty straight forward with material like yours, safe, and very likely to make a significant improvement on the existing rootage... and... you can use root grafting- approach and thread- to improve upon what might be lacking after the ground layer is completed. I've ground layered multiple potted and landscape A. palmatums, all semi dwarf cultivars, and had 100 % success in the tree surviving and improving the nebari.