Remember the story about cutting the ends off the ham? (wiring branch extensions)

[luvinthemountains]

I think the thread title introduces the purpose of this topic succinctly. If you are confused, just google it.

Since my early days in bonsai, I have heard that you should wire movement into your branch extensions on deciduous trees, let the wire start to bite in, then cut back hard to an inner bud/shoot - thereby removing long sections with movement. I have always wondered...why? I cannot think of a single explanation rooted in plant physiology that this would produce any better result in the long run. The only possible explanation that I can think of is that it leads to better discipline in wiring. That is, forcing yourself to wire extensions tricks you somehow into wiring better movement into the parts that you are going to keep. Still, there seem to be better ways to develop that discipline without the enormous waste of wire and time.

I am not referring to wiring extensions away from the center to avoid shading out lower/inner growth. This is specifically about wiring for movement in extensions that you know you plan to cut off.

What am I missing?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I can see why you wire them; they're soft shoots and if you leave the wire halfway, they might pivot and break if they catch some wind.
Movement for cuttings, maybe?

Breaking and bending can induce wood formation though, and it might thicken the keeper branch a bit more compared to a straight stick.

But to be honest, I don't own many deciduous trees and I've never read anything about wiring new shoots. Could be because I didn't look for it though.

 

[luvinthemountains]

I can see why you wire them; they're soft shoots and if you leave the wire halfway, they might pivot and break if they catch some wind.
Movement for cuttings, maybe?

Breaking and bending can induce wood formation though, and it might thicken the keeper branch a bit more compared to a straight stick.

Those sound like credible guesses to me.

 

[sorce]

What am I missing?

YOU are missing whatever you haven't found.

THEY are missing more, worse, it's already been replaced with a complacent, "this works".

The illusion that keeps us doing it is how nice and wiggly wired trees look. Especially with large aluminum spirals.
Then the branches "look cool" too, even after the wire is removed.

Problem is it looks nothing like a real tree. I guess that's where taste comes into play. What individuals are willing to sacrifice for what end product. How fast they want their end product, so on so on, etc etc till there is nothing left to argue about...........

Allowing this illusion wastes a lot of time.

I try to not fall for that illusion, and accept the following picture, also not a real tree, as what I get to look at for a faster final product.

Take this scenario for one of many examples.
Where we need to swap the thicknesses of a couple branches.


You could chop the high one back a couple years, but for me, this is an example of working against the tree, since you are uneccesarilly removing energy.

Utilizing that end growth you're talking about, wiring it with more purpose, like to swap the thicknesses of those branches without having to remove energy, or as much energy, is an example of working with the tree....

...and finding better ways to utilize this very unnecessary practice of fully wiring out D branches.

Routing wire is the first most important and difficult thing to learn. This can be practiced on a complex branch from the yard with string, or on a fake xmas tree with garland.

Placement of wire, knowing how it feels in your hand and while applying, can also be done safest on a yard branch. Due to this last thing....

Knowing when your shoots are fragile and when they're not.
This needs to be learned by feeling sacrifice things at different times of year, day, water levels, etc etc.....this is how you learn how gentle to be when working, safe times to be rough.

Point is, all the best ways to learn wiring, aren't by fully wiring out a tree.
Fully Wiring out a tree is better at teaching Discipline. Also highly required.

So practice and practice more. Wire that extra growth for a greater purpose.

Sorce

 

[Forsoothe!]

Nobody wants long, straight anything in bonsai. The sooner that shorter sections occur because of a change in direction, the better.

 

[James W.]

Fully wired branches look better in the interim before the branches get shortened, maybe several years.
Unless your wiring looks like mine.

 

[luvinthemountains]

Nobody wants long, straight anything in bonsai. The sooner that shorter sections occur because of a change in direction, the better.

I may not be explaining myself very well. Wiring a bud/shoot into the outside of a bend results in more pleasing movement and perhaps better growth, I understand that. But when developing branches, one may only be keeping an extension for a season, or less. See:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
/˭\_/˭\_/˭\_/˭\_/˭\

1 2 3 4
/˭\_/˭\

In this very poor text art, the lines represent a branch with wired-in curves, and the numbers represent length along the branch. My question is, why would you wire out length 6 and beyond, if your final branch will be at length 4, if you are cutting back to 4 within a year or less?

 

[Forsoothe!]

I may not be explaining myself very well. Wiring a bud/shoot into the outside of a bend results in more pleasing movement and perhaps better growth, I understand that. But when developing branches, one may only be keeping an extension for a season, or less. See:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
/˭\_/˭\_/˭\_/˭\_/˭\

1 2 3 4
/˭\_/˭\

In this very poor text art, the lines represent a branch with wired-in curves, and the numbers represent length along the branch. My question is, why would you wire out length 6 and beyond, if your final branch will be at length 4, if you are cutting back to 4 within a year or less?

I don't understand that. You seem (your words; to me) to be saying that the wired branch should continue beyond the outside bend (straight?) rather than return towards the opposite direction. The drawing seems to illustrate the opposite. ¿No comprende nada?

I intend that a bud at the outside bend of a branch radiate out and ramify as soon and as much as possible. If that happens for me, then the number of consecutive wired bends (as I see your examples) is one if it works (for me). It only needs to be added to (as your example is it doesn't work, that is, if it again does not ramify. I think this is standard procedure. This is hard to put into words,

 

[bwaynef]

He's asking why do you wire movement past what will eventually be used, when you know as you're wiring it that considerably more than half of your efforts are going to be chopped off.

 

[Forsoothe!]

He's asking why do you wire movement past what will eventually be used, when you know as you're wiring it that considerably more than half of your efforts are going to be chopped off.

Oh, sorry. I don't. Thank You.

 

[leatherback]

I am not sure why you think you should, or who tells you to fully wire out all branches even if you will cut them off.

I do not. I wire a little further than what I intent to keep, so I can convince the branch up again in its own space. But I do not see the purpose in fully wiring out a branch that will be largely removed later that year. Some sacrifices might be left for a few years, leading to potential airlayer material. Then it is worth wiring them out.

 

[luvinthemountains]

I didn't want to call anyone out specifically, but @markyscott 's chuhin broom elm is an example of what I mean.

 

[markyscott]

I didn't want to call anyone out specifically, but @markyscott 's chuhin broom elm is an example of what I mean.

There are several reasons I wire beyond the wood I intend to keep. You can decide if any of these reasons apply to you.
1) I like the tree to look as good as possible. Even when it’s in training.
2) I want the end growth to get light, but I don’t want it to shade out the interior growth. If I wire the branches out, I have a lot more control on how to place them
3) I have a lot of vertical space on my benches, but very little horizontal space. When I’m growing out branches on trees in development, I often let them extend several feet before cutting back. Since I don’t have several feet of bench space for every tree, I let them grow out beyond the point I want to cut back, then bend the shoots vertical and let them extend up. I can only do this if the shoots are fully wired out.

Hope that helps

- S

 

[Dav4]

You wire the new shoots for movement, but cut back regularly to build taper.

 

[LanceMac10]

There are several reasons I wire beyond the wood I intend to keep. You can decide if any of these reasons apply to you.
1) I like the tree to look as good as possible. Even when it’s in training.
2) I want the end growth to get light, but I don’t want it to shade out the interior growth. If I wire the branches out, I have a lot more control on how to place them
3) I have a lot of vertical space on my benches, but very little horizontal space. When I’m growing out branches on trees in development, I often let them extend several feet before cutting back. Since I don’t have several feet of bench space for every tree, I let them grow out beyond the point I want to cut back, then bend the shoots vertical and let them extend up. I can only do this if the shoots are fully wired out.

Hope that helps

- S

#2 sure...#3 is 100% awesome....#1....I'm working on it..

You wire the new shoots for movement, but cut back regularly to build taper.

...unless you spend spring filling in the pool and fall crying about it....2020 took my pool!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zach Smith]

I'll throw in a couple cents' worth that makes sense to me (and possibly only me). When a shoot takes off and I wire for movement, it's partly to introduce movement where none will be the case otherwise - that's the "looks good now" idea that's been expressed above. Frankly, a tree full of growing arrows is not only boring/ugly, it's a poor reflection on whoever is supposed to be annoying the tree with "training" (). So when your friends come around, they won't snicker when they leave your boring garden full of boring trees if those new shoots have no movement. Now, if your tree is of a species that tends to produce taper in its new growth, then you may not need to cut back hard - otherwise, you'll eventually abandon "looks good now" for both taper and movement. With that said, I have found through the years that I tend to not always cut to the first node once the branch has grown out and been wired and shaped a couple of times. I like choices, and they can shift over time. Once thing's for sure: if you don't wire movement into your new branches early on, you just won't have any choice but to cut hard to start building movement. Do you always want only one choice?

 

[luvinthemountains]

Hope that helps

Yes, it does. Some of this is "next level" rationale and I am not there yet. May never be, but we shall see...

 

[luvinthemountains]

I like choices, and they can shift over time. Once thing's for sure: if you don't wire movement into your new branches early on, you just won't have any choice but to cut hard to start building movement. Do you always want only one choice?

Good point here, too. Thank you and the rest of the experts who have taken time to respond!