Raffia and Alternatives

Avoid all of the above - clip and grow - with ground growing.
Then simple twist ties and more clipping.
Why make everything so complicated ?

Bonsai is not - brain surgery.
Seeds, seedlings, cuttings and even big cut downs are not that complicated.
Just to be - devil's advocate.
Good Day
Anthony
 
Avoid all of the above - clip and grow - with ground growing.
Then simple twist ties and more clipping.
Why make everything so complicated ?

Bonsai is not - brain surgery.
Seeds, seedlings, cuttings and even big cut downs are not that complicated.
Just to be - devil's advocate.
Good Day
Anthony
Recently on FaceBook one of my friends was in Japan...
and they were mentioning that they were going to go to Kimuras Nursery and meet with him.
They asked if anyone had any questions they would liked asked of Kimura?

Looking back... I wish I would of had your insight. I could see the question being asked...
In fact, I would pay to be there!
So, Mr. Kimura... why don't you Avoid all of the above -
clip and grow - with ground growing.
Then simple twist ties and more clipping.
Why make everything so complicated ?
Bonsai is not - brain surgery.

Anyone have this funny feeling my friend would of been shown the door?
For asking such a question! Lol! Would be priceless to watch though!
Too funny!
 
I have used folded ducktape once (so it wasn't sticky anymore).
 
Oso,

I see several issues with your pine example. The wire scars show that in addition to being left on too long, you wired it around and around like a spring. Wire has little holding strength when placed on like this. So, I suspect you had to make your bend sharper and sharper in order for it to "take" because when you tried to bend it, the branch would just straighten back up, right?

The cause? Bad technique of wiring! You probably used aluminum, too. Compounding the problem.

I have wired lots and lots of trees. Rarely use any raffia or support. If you wire properly with wire running along the outside of the curve, the wire prevents you from making a too sharp curve that will snap. Of course, you can overmusle anything and snap it, but I am assuming someone taking reasonable care and trying NOT to snap a branch. Put your thumbs on the inside of the curve, and wire running along the outside, and you likely won't have an issue.

Anything that can apply compression will assist the wood from delaminating. For pines, materials that are not sticky is easier on the bark.

Raffia has been used in the past. It's doesn't stretch, and when it dries it does appear to shrink a bit, maintaining its compression. Materials that are stretchy, have good compression at first, but over time the compressive force relaxes. I'm not sure if that's a benefit.

The current product used in Japan appears to be a plastic strapping tape, or rope. I've had a difficult time locating a source here in the US that is exactly the same. But it appears to be common in Japan. It's a flat plastic Urathane strap with extra bracing along the edges about 5/8 inches wide. Very strong, doesn't appear to stretch. At least I couldn't stretch it when I applied it. So it can be pulled very tight, and it holds. I over lapped it 50%. And, amazingly, it will twist, so you can tie it off well.

image.jpeg

When Juan and I started bending with the Jack, there was no separation in the wrapped area.

I plan to remove the wrapping in about another month. We did this in June. The guy wire will remain.
 
I am not sure I understand your point?
Everything when it get old gets brittle... This is why elderly people need to be careful when stepping off a curb, to not brake a leg, or dislocate a hip...

However, it seems to me that you have this backwards... the more brittle, the more support needed to support what you are bending... not the other way around. When bending and trying to prevent blowouts, the name of the game is Compression. The tighter the Compression... the less give there will be. If you are using a product that has built in properties that allow it to flex... it will not give the same Compression, as those that do not.
My Question, to you then... is how can you say that the product that you used, worked better, if it did not sufficiently do its job?
In fact... one could easily ague that perhaps just the opposite is true. Right? That the example given, would be ample proof as to why one Should use Raffia.
As a starter, you can see how closely coiled I had the heavy gauge copper wire = per official practice, lots of compressive support.
I've had blow outs trying to bend large (small garden center) Atlas cedar trunks wrapped with many layers of raffia and wire. The raffia strands separate along the break. One must then do something to prevent desiccation or the portion above the break will likely die. Wrapping with polyethylene sheeting or parafilm seems to work. This silicone tape also does the job. So, now I just wrap the branch with the silicone tape first.

At any rate, my only point is that it is an alternative to raffia. I understand that you reject the idea out of hand.
 
As a starter, you can see how closely coiled I had the heavy gauge copper wire = per official practice, lots of compressive support.

Copper, good. Closely coiled, bad.

The closely coiled part is was did you in as mentioned in my previous post.
 
Oso,

From where did you learn this "Official practice"?
 
Raffia has been used in the past. It's doesn't stretch, and when it dries it does appear to shrink a bit, maintaining its compression. Materials that are stretchy, have good compression at first, but over time the compressive force relaxes. I'm not sure if that's a benefit.

The current product used in Japan appears to be a plastic strapping tape, or rope. I've had a difficult time locating a source here in the US that is exactly the same. But it appears to be common in Japan. It's a flat plastic Urathane strap with extra bracing along the edges about 5/8 inches wide. Very strong, doesn't appear to stretch. At least I couldn't stretch it when I applied it. So it can be pulled very tight, and it holds. I over lapped it 50%. And, amazingly, it will twist, so you can tie it off well.

There's a guy in our club (who also posts here, @Hank Miller) who uses something he calls "Chinese (or Japanese) string." Says he can find it at local Japanese markets, and says that it is used in Japan for wrapping packages. I haven't used it or found any to purchase, wonder if it's the same stuff, though my recollection is that it is thinner than 5/8"...more like the width of ribbon used on gifts.

I've used raffia a few times now, and also used black electrical tape - first layer applied backward so the sticky part stays away from the bark. I've also used both on the same branch - raffia as the first layer, electrical tape outside that. Both have their own issues with application...raffia is time consuming and you need to be careful to overlap well when switching to a new piece. But once you get the hang of it, it becomes pretty easy. The electrical tape of course tends to want to stick to anything it touches, which can be a pain in tight quarters. Raffia tends to decompose and fall apart in about a year.
 
There's a guy in our club (who also posts here, @Hank Miller) who uses something he calls "Chinese (or Japanese) string." Says he can find it at local Japanese markets, and says that it is used in Japan for wrapping packages. I haven't used it or found any to purchase, wonder if it's the same stuff, though my recollection is that it is thinner than 5/8"...more like the width of ribbon used on gifts.

I've used raffia a few times now, and also used black electrical tape - first layer applied backward so the sticky part stays away from the bark. I've also used both on the same branch - raffia as the first layer, electrical tape outside that. Both have their own issues with application...raffia is time consuming and you need to be careful to overlap well when switching to a new piece. But once you get the hang of it, it becomes pretty easy. The electrical tape of course tends to want to stick to anything it touches, which can be a pain in tight quarters. Raffia tends to decompose and fall apart in about a year.
Coh,

The stuff they use is strapping tape. For strapping packages to pallets. The green strap used here is a woven material that is much stiffer.

I'm hoping someone at the Nationals will have some for sale.

The first place I saw it used was on Peter Tea's blog when he was in Japan.
 
So, I suspect you had to make your bend sharper and sharper in order for it to "take"
Well, this thread has pretty much been hijacked already ...

Sorry, but this is not what happened. It behaved nothing like you imagine and nothing like my other experiences with JBP.

This tree is was about 4 feet tall and in a 1 gallon pot when I bought at a local garden center for $10. I can only speculate about its history at the grower.

thunStick_2014-09-20.jpg

Aside from a try out for the silicone tape, my plan was to bend this around on itself and secure it with guys. The heavy copper wire was applied for compression, not to hold the bend.

I simply gripped the trunk with my fingers and started trying to bend it - snap! Moved up the stem a bit farther and tried again, a bit more gingerly - snap! Here it is afterward (I'm sure you will notice that I also up-potted it before 'bending') - so now it should be clear just what I was up to.

thunStick_2014-09-27.jpg

Oso,

From where did you learn this "Official practice"?

evergreengardenworks.com is one such place.
 
Well, this thread has pretty much been hijacked already ...

Sorry, but this is not what happened. It behaved nothing like you imagine and nothing like my other experiences with JBP.

This tree is was about 4 feet tall and in a 1 gallon pot when I bought at a local garden center for $10. I can only speculate about its history at the grower.

View attachment 115176

Aside from a try out for the silicone tape, my plan was to bend this around on itself and secure it with guys. The heavy copper wire was applied for compression, not to hold the bend.

I simply gripped the trunk with my fingers and started trying to bend it - snap! Moved up the stem a bit farther and tried again, a bit more gingerly - snap! Here it is afterward (I'm sure you will notice that I also up-potted it before 'bending') - so now it should be clear just what I was up to.

View attachment 115177evergreengardenworks.com is one such place.
Would like to explain why the bend failed...
I again, am not trying to attack you here, just trying to help you learn, so hopefully you will have better luck next go around!

In this particular case, sadly it is the wire that caused the problem, and led to the breaks... and might very well of happened regardless of what you are using for binding.

I will explain...

The idea if using wire to help with compression, has it's advantages, as well it's disadvantages... When you apply wire, not only are you having to bend the branch, or in this case the trunk, but you are also having to bend the wire as well. The heavier the guage... the more pressure you will have to apply.

Now, in theory it sounds logical that the more wraps one does and the tighter the coiling, the better compression and support you are offering the branch to bend with, and the more protection you are offering to prevent a blow out... And you are... But, where the problem lies, is that this protection is only as good as it's weakest link. So, in this case... where there is no wire. Only way you could prevent, not having any spacing, would be to literally coil the wire right next to the last coil and make a solid structure. However, this would be quite literally impossible to bend. This why instead we use Raffia or binding... it is intended to do this job, and wirh a most no resistance.

So, seeing that when you add wire to bend, you also have to take into consideration the amount of force it takes to not only bend the trunk, but the wire itself... as well, that you have doubled pretty much the coiling. Which now means it will take twice the force to do the bend. In essence, you have actually hindered the bend, even though your intentions were sound. The amount of force needed to bend the wire was greater than the trunk could withstand. And the breaks occurred, where there was no wire to help support the trunk.

Again, I am only saying this to try and help. Not trying to knock you... and in fact I want you to succeed at this!

So, first off...
When doing a bend, examine and figure out the "Grain" of the area being bent. If you take a 2X4 piece if wood and examine it... you will see the grain of the wood runs along it's length. If you lay it flat on an object, on its 4 inch side, with only it's center supported... over time you will find the the ends on either side will sag. This is due to the fact that the grain runs along this direction, and the bend that is created due to the sag, also runs along the grain and the wood is less structurally sound.

Now if you were to take the same board and lay it on a object, only supporting it's center, but you turned the board, where it rested on it's 2 inch side... over time you will find virtually no sag. This is why in construction of buildings boards for joists are placed this way. They are more structurally sound this way, and in order for them to sag, they would have to bend across the grain.

Very important to understand in doing bends in Bonsai! If you take your hand and bend an area where you would like to preform a bend, you will see that if you bend in one direction, there is hardly any resistance, where if you try to bend in the other it is virtually impossible. So, always plan bends with this in mind. Success will always be greater bending with the grain.

Now, what you can do, and where wraping wiring helps... is that it will allow you to twist the trunk or branch during a bend, to position the direction of the grain, for another bend along the grain further out. This is why often times you will see when some one bends, they will often add a twist in as well.

So, to go back to your tree...

The very first bend you did in your image, was just down to the right. This cut across the grain, thus the break... What I would have done differently would of first, started the bend towards the back, then add a twist as I did so, and brought the branch back down and towards the front.

In essence, creating a curved bend down, not straight. Think of a mountain road here... gradual curved descent, puts a lot less wear on your brakes than a straight down hill shot. It puts less stress on the area being bent as well.

With this bend and curve introduced, you would set yourself up for the next bend. the grain, would now run along the length of the branch, and you could do a bend straight down.

So, in hindsight...
The bend you were trying to perform, the way you did it... would have been actually more successful without wire at all. Just "Raffia", bound tight, and using a guy wire.

However, to of alleviated any possibility of stress, and possible break, I would of wrapped wire properly, wirh correct spacing, and done the bend backwards as I have suggested, with the twist introduced during the process. Making sure that the wire I had wrapped, was coiled on the direction of how I wanted to do the twist... if not, it will just un-coil itself, and would make sure that and areas bent, we're done in an area, where there was support from the wire behind, to give compression to the outside of the curve, to prevent a blow out.

Just, takes practice and constant doing!
Keep it up... you will get there!
 
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tmp_5702-thunStick_2014-09-27-1807080347.jpg

I understand that what I said above is confusing... so thought I would explain a bit more.

If you look at this photo of your tree... the grain of the trunk is running from the base up the tree to the right... So, "Side to Side".
This is evident by the bend in the trunk along this direction. The trunk is not as structurally sound, and gravity is pulling the weight of the top back down to earth. Thus, the sag in the trunk, like the example of the 2X4 I gave in the previous post.

The bend you performed, was in this case "Back to Front"... across the grain.

First bend should of been just pulling it straight down along this "Side to Side" axis, and in the process introducing a twist down and back to the left. Rather than down towards the viewer, and the another bend to the left.

Either way, it is done now, and it lived, so success... I would make sure to just keep it wired in place to heal for a couple of years at least, till it has time to really set in place. And concentrate on the next bend you do! Perhaps in time... one lower down:to compress the tree further?
 
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Has anyone ever tried gift wrapping ribbon? Not sure of its stretchiness or how well it weathers. I just remember as a kid at Christmas, the darn ribbon could slow me down.
 
Oso,

Sawgrass gave a good explanation of some of what went wrong.

Some JBP are more prone to snapping than others. Boon claims that using organic fertilizer rather than chemical fertilizer makes the tree more supple.

As you found out, using your wrap and the way you wired the tree failed. In spite of your efforts, the tree snapped. It later repaired itself, but your wrapping and wiring did not do what you wanted, which was to bend without breaking.

So...

Sawgrass and I have both mentioned the problem of wrapping the copper wire around and around like a spring.

Let's see... "Like a spring". Hmmm... It looks like a spring...

So, I took a piece of 12 gauge annealed copper, and wound one end in tight spirals around a pencil, and the other end in bonsai style spirals.

What did I find? The spring like section has very little holding force, and tends to want to spring back into its "spring" configuration. The bonsai spirals bend and stay.

image.jpeg

Wire is weird that way! You would think that "more wire per square inch" would hold better, but it doesn't. I'm sure there is an engineer on the site that can dazzle us with the science and metallurgy as to what's happening.

Also, look what happened on your tree. We can only see the second sharp bend on your picture. But the break occurred between two of your tight coils. You see, if the wire runs along the branch more so that you bend where the wire is on the OUTSIDE of the curve, the wire prevents you from making the curve so sharp. In your case, tight coils meant that one coil went above, and one coil went below, so the wire connecting the two was on the inside of the bent which allows the SNAP! to occur.

I've posted this with out reading the evergreen garden works link. I'll go do that.
 
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Oso, ok, now I'm more confused. That link goes to a cedar page. In it Brent describes doing some heavy bending to cedar trunks to make cascades. He starts by tying on raffia lengthwise along the trunk. Then ties on copper wire LENGTHWISE along the trunk. Then he wires over the top of all that "in the traditional manner". Then bends. Presumably with the lengthwise wire going along the outside of the curve, although he does not explicitly say that. He may put the lengthwise copper wire on all sides.

But it in in no way close to what you did.
 
The very first bend you did in your image, was just down to the right. This cut across the grain, thus the break... What I would have done differently would of first, started the bend towards the back, then add a twist as I did so, and brought the branch back down and towards the front.
Stems and trunks positioned with a horizontal component (not absolutely vertical) are usually thicker vertically than horizontally. Gravitropism causes more wood to form on the underside. I think this is your 'wood grain' point; to this, I attempted bends orthogonally to this axis (the direction in which the stem should have been thinner) and it snapped.

While I hear your point about twisting while bending, I cannot comprehend the front/back stuff. Regardless, you're telling me that I/one should twist the stem while trying to bend it instead of just bending - right?

My Question, to you then... is how can you say that the product that you used, worked better,
I am persuaded that this stem would have broken, regardless. Arguing about whether raffia would have prevented this outcome is moot as there are no more like it to test the hypothesis. However, you might give it a try sometime and assess whether you've got this right or not. One could use silicone tape as a cut paste like underlay and apply raffia over it - just in case what might go wrong does.

This product worked better in the sense that raffia does nothing in the event of a blow out. This product does. Raffia is just cheap craft store crap, but it works nicely --> cost effective. Alternatives all seem to be more expensive, but there are alternatives of which this self-amalgamating silicone tape is one. The oxygen transmission and water barrier properties have a lot of horticultural appeal.

I do agree that this coiling wire stuff is a waste of wire. It is simply what I tried on this tree 2 years ago. I actually like longitudinal wires secured with zip ties better - cheaper and easier to install/remove. I mentioned previously that I used this silicone tape to bend the trunk of my JWP 'Aoi'. Apparently no one followed the link since we are not discussing it too. With it, I laid longitudinal wires atop a layer of this silicone tape and secured the works with zip ties. I used two rebar levers to bend it and I bent it in two planes. No blow outs occurred and the longitudinal wires are holding the bend(s) in place nicely. The tree still seems quite healthy, even after also half bare rooting it this spring.
 
Oso, looked at that thread. Hard to see what you did in the photos, but thanks for sharing.
 
Stems and trunks positioned with a horizontal component (not absolutely vertical) are usually thicker vertically than horizontally. Gravitropism causes more wood to form on the underside. I think this is your 'wood grain' point; to this, I attempted bends orthogonally to this axis (the direction in which the stem should have been thinner) and it snapped.

While I hear your point about twisting while bending, I cannot comprehend the front/back stuff. Regardless, you're telling me that I/one should twist the stem while trying to bend it instead of just bending - right?


I am persuaded that this stem would have broken, regardless. Arguing about whether raffia would have prevented this outcome is moot as there are no more like it to test the hypothesis. However, you might give it a try sometime and assess whether you've got this right or not. One could use silicone tape as a cut paste like underlay and apply raffia over it - just in case what might go wrong does.

This product worked better in the sense that raffia does nothing in the event of a blow out. This product does. Raffia is just cheap craft store crap, but it works nicely --> cost effective. Alternatives all seem to be more expensive, but there are alternatives of which this self-amalgamating silicone tape is one. The oxygen transmission and water barrier properties have a lot of horticultural appeal.

I do agree that this coiling wire stuff is a waste of wire. It is simply what I tried on this tree 2 years ago. I actually like longitudinal wires secured with zip ties better - cheaper and easier to install/remove. I mentioned previously that I used this silicone tape to bend the trunk of my JWP 'Aoi'. Apparently no one followed the link since we are not discussing it too. With it, I laid longitudinal wires atop a layer of this silicone tape and secured the works with zip ties. I used two rebar levers to bend it and I bent it in two planes. No blow outs occurred and the longitudinal wires are holding the bend(s) in place nicely. The tree still seems quite healthy, even after also half bare rooting it this spring.
Sorry, I did not notice there was a link to the JWP thread. Yes, there, the longitudal wires prevented you from making a 90 degree bend!

Your wrapping stuff may work if there is sufficient supporting wire. Then again, if there is sufficient supporting wire, then perhaps no wrapping stuff is needed! Except as padding.
 
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