GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
In demo's for rock and slab plantings I see a LOT of people using copper wire to tie down the trees. Wouldn't aluminum be a "healthier" choice or am I off the beaten path here 
Question on wire type
- Thread starter GrimLore
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Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
If you are talking about the anchors cemented or drilled into rocks, probably both will work but copper being stronger will be thinner & easier to hide for the same strength. I think there will not be enough to make the environment toxic even if they corrode.
But wait for the experts to chime in.
But wait for the experts to chime in.
Lancaster
Mame
Stronger, yes.
And copper doesn't stretch like aluminum does.
And copper doesn't stretch like aluminum does.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
If you're talking about the old wive's tale that says copper is dangerous to plant roots, fuhgedaboudit. Not true.
NewWorldBonsai
Mame
Agree with everyone here. Although I'm sure most people know, do not use copper on azalea as they are allergic to copper. There are also a few other varieties that copper should never been used on. Does anyone have some resources on this?
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Honest I was expecting a much different response 
Reading a lot about copper I find it attaches itself readily to organic matter pretty much stays there if undisturbed.
I also read it is quite necessary for plants to survive although if applied on purpose and over dosed can greatly affect the taste of many foods grown for consumption as well as copper content.
Also have read that in Farm type of enviornments it sometimes leads to the soil being ruined from excessive application.
Copper is used to treat different types of blight even for Azalea.
In the application I was thinking about there is little or no organic matter so I am "guessing" that is why in addition to strenght it is used in rock and slab plantings(no interaction). I just do not want to guess wrong so I tossed the question out there
Reading a lot about copper I find it attaches itself readily to organic matter pretty much stays there if undisturbed.
I also read it is quite necessary for plants to survive although if applied on purpose and over dosed can greatly affect the taste of many foods grown for consumption as well as copper content.
Also have read that in Farm type of enviornments it sometimes leads to the soil being ruined from excessive application.
Copper is used to treat different types of blight even for Azalea.
In the application I was thinking about there is little or no organic matter so I am "guessing" that is why in addition to strenght it is used in rock and slab plantings(no interaction). I just do not want to guess wrong so I tossed the question out there
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
When does copper clad come into the picture? Is it a mid-point between aluminum and copper or
lordy
Omono
never heard of it. Cant see a need either. If you needed copper wire due to a chemical interaction, why not use copper? If you needed aluminum weight or bending characteristics, why not use aluminum? I'm not stocking yet another batch of wire that does the same thing as what I already have.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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I wonder if Grim is referring to the imported aluminum wire colored a dark brown to make it appear more pleasing when placed on trees? This is the wire I have always use, and I think, pretty much everyone else who isn't using copper. I've seen uncolored aluminum wire being used but that appears to be pretty uncommon.
William N. Valavanis
Chumono
Boy I did not know that copper wire is bad for azaleas. Nobody told me that. Does that mean that all the azaleas I've been training will die? I've been using copper wire for training azaleas for 50 years now...
Ahh Bill...you should know by now that everything you read on the internet is true...sorry about your trees!!
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You know how that goes Bill, it's like the bumble bee, according to physics it is not supposed to be able to fly. However; no one told the bumble bee.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I don't know if that's true, but think of how these poor azaleas have been suffering for the past 50 years! Imagine having severe allergies for 50 years. Haven't you heard them sneezing and coughing? Get that copper off!
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
As to wire: I agree with all of the reasons that some of you are so adamantly convinced that Copper is the best choice, for no other reason than it's purchase ability on application. However; it is possible to do the same thing, though it takes heavier wire to accomplish with aluminum wire it is also far less expensive, it is removable and reusable without annealing if caution is exercised.
As I said earlier; yes copper is better----so I'm an idiot-----a cheap idiot, but I get the job done with aluminum.
As I said earlier; yes copper is better----so I'm an idiot-----a cheap idiot, but I get the job done with aluminum.
William N. Valavanis
Chumono
The only reason to use wire is to shape the tree, that's the important objective.
Use what is available to get the job done. If you use aluminum wire, fine. If you use copper wire fine. If you use steel wire (and can bend it), fine. All work to shape the tree.
Don't forget that the wire is only temporary, it all comes off when the shape you want is achieved.
Bill
Use what is available to get the job done. If you use aluminum wire, fine. If you use copper wire fine. If you use steel wire (and can bend it), fine. All work to shape the tree.
Don't forget that the wire is only temporary, it all comes off when the shape you want is achieved.
Bill
october
Masterpiece
Also, although copper is stronger, you cannot rebend it. If you use aluminum, although you will need to use a heavier gauge, it is not set. If you use copper and change your mind about something or want to bend something a little different. It pretty much cannot be done. You will have to cut it off and start over again. If it is thin enough, you might be able to tweek the copper slightly, but having to force it can be dangerous as far as breaking branches etc..
As far a copper being dangerous. I believe what people are thinking is when you spray a copper funigicide or use some liquid with copper. You should try not to let the copper get into the soil because it is not good for the roots. I see it as kind of like us with isopropyl alcohol. As a topical soultion is is very useful and can help with a lot of thing. However, we cannot drink it.
Rob
As far a copper being dangerous. I believe what people are thinking is when you spray a copper funigicide or use some liquid with copper. You should try not to let the copper get into the soil because it is not good for the roots. I see it as kind of like us with isopropyl alcohol. As a topical soultion is is very useful and can help with a lot of thing. However, we cannot drink it.
Rob
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I appreciate that comment. There are some who think using anything but copper is blasphemy regardless if you can get aluminum to do what you want it to do. Personally I can no longer deal with copper because of my carpal tunnel issues, or afford it, due to my financial issues.
William N. Valavanis
Chumono
I did not know that copper wire will kill roots, nobody told me 50 years ago and I used it and am still using it. I still have bonsai which have been potted for over 40 years which are still thriving, and of course, are tied into their containers with copper wire.
I have several large size bonsai which are tied into their containers with NO. 8 copper wire, and they are also healthy as well as beautify.
100 of my finest bonsai creations are featured in my new upcoming book: Classical Bonsai Art- A Half Century of Bonsai Study, The Creations and Passion of William N. Valavanis. The hardcover 256 page book has over 675 developmental as well as portrait photos and is filled with tips I've learned during the past 50 years.
I have several large size bonsai which are tied into their containers with NO. 8 copper wire, and they are also healthy as well as beautify.
100 of my finest bonsai creations are featured in my new upcoming book: Classical Bonsai Art- A Half Century of Bonsai Study, The Creations and Passion of William N. Valavanis. The hardcover 256 page book has over 675 developmental as well as portrait photos and is filled with tips I've learned during the past 50 years.
October,
It is true that copper "work hardens" as you bend it, and it becomes stiffer. That's why it works so well, and holds the branches better into the shapes we want. But it does not become set in stone!
I can "unwire" the smaller gauges up to about 12 gauge. Any larger than that I have to cut off.
I have found I can "tweek" a copper wired branch after its initial wiring/styling.
One thing to keep in mind when wiring with copper is that once the wire is on, and now you're bending/styling to bend the WIRE not the branch. Think that way and it makes it much easier. Also, you can grab the wire with a pair of pliers to make the bend, if that helps. Graham Potter does that a lot in his videos, if you want to see it done.
It is true that copper "work hardens" as you bend it, and it becomes stiffer. That's why it works so well, and holds the branches better into the shapes we want. But it does not become set in stone!
I can "unwire" the smaller gauges up to about 12 gauge. Any larger than that I have to cut off.
I have found I can "tweek" a copper wired branch after its initial wiring/styling.
One thing to keep in mind when wiring with copper is that once the wire is on, and now you're bending/styling to bend the WIRE not the branch. Think that way and it makes it much easier. Also, you can grab the wire with a pair of pliers to make the bend, if that helps. Graham Potter does that a lot in his videos, if you want to see it done.
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