Query regarding technique to thicken a branch from Peter Tea

[Lars Grimm]

Hi All,

I'm reading through old blog posts on Peter Tea's website. He makes a statement that if you want to thicken a branch you need to cut off all the side branches and leave just one main runner. I always thought that the best way to thicken a branch was to increase the foliar mass, which would involve leaving multiple side branches. Can anyone clarify?

Here is the link for reference: https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/the-trident-maple/

Lars

 

[0soyoung]

I'm with you --> foliar mass.
And more apical meristems and leaves --> more auxin.
IMHO, most important in spring (i.e., prior to the summer solstice or shortly thereafter). This is when bulk of cell division in the cambium occurs. Thickening thereafter is mostly inflation/enlargement of these cells.

 

[Adair M]

I'm with you --> foliar mass.
And more apical meristems and leaves --> more auxin.
IMHO, most important in spring (i.e., prior to the summer solstice or shortly thereafter). This is when bulk of cell division in the cambium occurs. Thickening thereafter is mostly inflation/enlargement of these cells.

Oso, it seems logical that foliage mass would thicken branches, but it doesn't work that way. It is terminal tip growth that puts on the girth!

You see, in the spring the tree uses its stored sugars to create the new leaves and stems. It's not until the growth phase is over that the tree begins to create more sugars than it consumes. So little thickening occurs on the old wood during spring. Fall is when you see branches fattening up! By that time the tree is storing excess sugars for the following spring.

Now, why does terminal growth work better than ramification? Terminal tips produce MORE auxins than ramification.

Take, for example, my avatar pine. Highly ramified, lots of foliage density. Each branchlet gets longer by 1/4 to 1/2 inch longer each year, but the branches do not thicken any. Actually, each year, each terminal node produces two new summer candles after decandling. Each year the number of little twigs on the tree doubles! But the trunk does not get any noticeably thicker.

On the other hand, I have a project tree with little ramification that I'm letting some of the branches grow out some. On those branches, there's little foliage except for the terminal tips. But, those terminal candles grew 8 to 12 inches! And thickened the branch considerably.

So... Peter Tea's method works.

 

[0soyoung]

Terminal tips produce MORE auxins than ramification.

But ramification produces more terminal tips (apical meristems)!

During any one growing season, inducing branching in a growing stem by decapitating it (removing the apical meristem) will reduce the thickening that can occur simply because there will be a period of time with a reduced supply of auxin. But some carbohydrate that might have gone into thickening the stem would be diverted into making the new shoots. Agreed.

The point we disagree about is Peter's claim that eliminating these side branches at the start of the next season will make the stem thicken more in the second season than keeping them.

Take, for example, my avatar pine. Highly ramified, lots of foliage density. Each branchlet gets longer by 1/4 to 1/2 inch longer each year, but the branches do not thicken any. Actually, each year, each terminal node produces two new summer candles after decandling. Each year the number of little twigs on the tree doubles! But the trunk does not get any noticeably thicker.

This is because you have significantly reduced the total foliage mass (leaf area) - there is auxin but a resticted carbohydrate supply by resticting the foliage area (reduced needle count and/or needle length). Also, decandling = decapitation and the diversion of carbohydrate I discussed above. Quite decanding and just let the branches grow, those branches with more apical metistems will thicken faster that those with fewer, all other things being equal.[/QUOTE]

 

[ralf]

I leave the side branches close to the trunk ( those I plan to use for the next stages ). I restrict their growth though so they do not get too much girth = there is a reasonable taper right from the beginning. Then I have a strong leader. I remove most of the other side branches from this leader to allow as much light as possible to the inner part of the tree. Due to the lenght of the leader there is enough folliage to thicken the primary part of the branch ...

There are many possible roads that take you to your valhalla. You should select the one that works best for the genus/variety of the tree you work with ..... and for you

btw who is "auxin"?

 

[Lars Grimm]

So, to summarize.
1. Terminal tips increase branch girth.
2. Foliar mass by itself doesn't increase girth.
3. More terminal tips equals more branch girth.

I think the confusion on my part might have to do more with an apical tip that is able to produce a lot of auxin (i.e., strongly growing shoot) versus one that is not (i.e., on the end of a highly ramified branch). Practically speaking, it seems to me that if you let several dominant sacrificial branches run on the same branch you would do the best to increase the branch girth further back where it joins the trunk.

 

[Giga]

A good way is to think, is how many resources that branch is pulling = the amount of thickness it will achieve. To dumb it down, bottom branch on a maple is left alone while all other tips are pinched. Tree realized that, "oh, this low branch I can pump all my resources into it". So the branch tip has the most auxin(this is what tells the tree to put those resources) in it and as a result more solar panels, aka leaves. The by product of the tree putting all it's energy this way is a much thicker branch. So we can tell the tree where we want that energy to go, whether in one branch or evenly through out the tree. This is why you need to pay attention to what stage your tree is in and use the right approach. Many people fail to see what stage the tree is in and use refined techniques when really the tree needs developmental technique or even baser structural techniques.

 

[Adair M]

Also, trees that are more apically dominant will tend to try to grow tall. Whichever shoot is the highest will grow the fastest. And put on the most wood to support it.

 

[sorce]

Truth truth Lars....

It will always vary.

I defoliated a Hops Hornbeam branch last year to keep it thinner...
It got thicker.
Kinda points towards the single tip theory..
But this was only leaves not branches....
So go figure.

Best to test.
Must to test!

I followed that theory and found it true and not true.

Sorce

 

[Giga]

And put on the most wood to support it.

thats what she said......

 

[William N. Valavanis]

Here is what I do: I remove ALL the side branches and foliage from escape or sacrifice branches because they tend to shade the bonsai. One growing tip will thicken the trunk and branch much quicker. Get all that foliage AWAY from the bonsai, keep it to one side where it will not shade the tree.

Also its important to remember not to allow the escape branch to get too thick, especially with evergreens. They take a long time to cover with bark after removing. Best to keep it for a season or two or three, then replace the escape branch with another. The scars will be smaller on the trunk and will cover quicker.

 

[GGB]

This thread is awesome.
I heard once that trunk chopping consistently will increase trunk girth faster than just ignoring a tree for years. I've only started side by side comparisons this year but I wonder now if there isn't something to it

 

[Lars Grimm]

This thread is awesome.
I heard once that trunk chopping consistently will increase trunk girth faster than just ignoring a tree for years. I've only started side by side comparisons this year but I wonder now if there isn't something to it

I think that might be referring to the technique typically used for Trident Maples of doing a low trunk chop and then letting a bunch of new shoots to extend. Cutting them back to low stubs causes callus and swelling to form. The technique is described in Peter Adams excellent book.

 

[Lars Grimm]

thats what she said......

This thread is ripe for these jokes. I actually rewrote several sentence after rereading them....

 

[thumblessprimate1]

What if I want a sacrifice branch at top to thicken and close a chop wound, but also have primary branches that still need some thickening? Should I focus on closing the large chop wound by cutting back the primary branches, while letting the sacrifice branch at the chop site grow freely? Would that be the same logic as removing the branches on the sacrifice branch leaving only the terminal growth?

 

[Lars Grimm]

What if I want a sacrifice branch at top to thicken and close a chop wound, but also have primary branches that still need some thickening? Should I focus on closing the large chop wound by cutting back the primary branches, while letting the sacrifice branch at the chop site grow freely? Would that be the same logic as removing the branches on the sacrifice branch leaving only the terminal growth?

It seems to me this would be a question of priorities. If you want the chop to go faster then focus on that, otherwise you could do a more balances approach it would just take longer.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Here's a Hackberry. I've already cut back some leggy branches in the picture. Will cut back some more of the branches from my sacrifice branch later after reading this post. I didn't cut anything there; only wired up the branches on the sacrifice branch as they haven't shaded much light. Pot is kind of small, I know. May make a wooden box and plop it in there this week. The small size was convenient for my recent move.

 

[GGB]

@Lars Grimm totally makes sense. I can think of a Canadian fella who's using that approach on native and invasive material

 

[GSCarlson]

This is my prunus mume I started from seed in the spring of last year. Right now it has a 5' leader and some shorter branches down low. Would it help grow the trunk to cut off everything but the leader? Will it get some taper by keeping the sacrifice branches on the lower trunk? Yes, this thread is awesome, but I'm trying to get some clarification.

 

[Paradox]

I'd have to agree with @Adair M.

With my own observations of my trees, the branches start to thicken in late summer. That is when I most often notice the wire starting to bite in and I have to remove it.