Progression: Restyling A Clump-Style "Old Shimpaku" - Design input requested

[leatherback]

and the way the trees in the clump interact with each other

I feel that size matters for this..

 

[MHBonsai]

Alright, so getting into some ideas on how to do this redesign, I spent some time figuring out how all the branches weave in and out; it is rather complex. There are 6 trunks coming out of the base, with only 4 visible from the front...i think 1 of the 2 on the back is a candidate for a jin or outright removal, depending on how much space is opened up from cleaning up the main trunks.

Since this is so complex, I tried to label and trace out the paths...wasn;t sure how else to capture this, and am open to feedback on it. I thought about labeling the branches with numbers, but it becomes chaotic. I ordered the 4 visible trunks based on thickness, tho debatable whether 1 and 2 will swap...

View attachment 469267

Starting with # 1, this one is wacky. It bifurcates (trifurcates?) very close to the base, and then rapidly narrows...I think the first fork to the left is a candidate for removal, since it juts out to the front, and seems too low to add value / it blocks trunk 4. The middle and left fork of trunk 1 are both decently thick, and these could be kept and grown taller/thicker. Not sure if I should remove the lower forks given my desire for a more think and dominant trunk and then build branching and ramification up high.

Trunk 2 is a bit simpler. the first fork to the left takes up the middle of the composition, and can go. The rest I have to wait and see how they grow out..possibly reduce from 3/4 to 2 where it splits a lot to let one shoot dominate and thicken

Trunk 3 is weird...it comes right at the viewer, but has some very interesting movement. It is too thick to bend down low, but the right fork bends OK. I was thinking to remove the left fork (airlayer if possible and start a new tree ) and then bend to the right to reveal trunk 2

These are my ideas thus far, would love other thoughts and suggestions on how to go about it or where my thought process is dicey. Idk what to even do with the apices of each trunk other than trim any obviously dead/weak branches. Should I pinch side branches so the energy is focused in the parts I want to become the apex? Wire to make a more traditional tree shape? Trying to fight the urge to be greedy and keep lots of branches since that seems counterintuitive to the goal of differentiating the trees

I like the material. I wouldn't be afraid of the leggy trunks - in a clump you can still make a realistic image but it's challenging.

Credit to Mirai, I could see yours following this kind of concept:

 

[gjones_42]

I like the material. I wouldn't be afraid of the leggy trunks - in a clump you can still make a realistic image but it's challenging.

Credit to Mirai, I could see yours following this kind of concept:

View attachment 469714

You're playing a dangerous game introducing a compelling example that is a rock planting One day I hope to get that far, but for starters I'll work with the existing pot, hah.

 

[MHBonsai]

You're playing a dangerous game introducing a compelling example that is a rock planting One day I hope to get that far, but for starters I'll work with the existing pot, hah.

Right!

Mostly I just like the branch structure and light/openness of scale to it. And the longer bare trunks could work with what you've got there.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Watching this thread develop now for a bit…..

My two bits…. Cutting down to the chase…. …it’s too chaotic. Here’s my approach on these designs. Others may have better ideas, but this works for me. Three steps.

1. A repot into some decent soil, as previously suggested, without a ton of root removal…. Junipers can take a lot, yet your tree is weak. Feed it well with something like Osmocote Plus and a 2-3 week combo of Fish emulsion/Humic/kelp for the next couple years. This will help push a lot of inner growth, which will give you many options down the line.
(For media I use 1:1:1:+ = Akadama: Pumice: Lava + 5% Biochar or horticultural charcoal. Works for me.)

2. A trim to open up the canopy… guessing you’re up on that technique by your write up. While doing so start from the bottom and focus on trimming off any junctions down to bifurcations (two ). The let her rip until next year.

Repeat for 2nd year. That should get the tree strong, the inner works cleaned up and ready to work hard. Likely need two years of this routine. Others might jump right in, your choice, I tend towards the conservative side. I don’t like dead bonsai.

3. Develop a design where each of the trunks can be clearly seen from the front. Start from the bottom. Remove anything non essential that interferes with this goal. Not sure I’d Jin anything… but your tree, your choice.

Also remove horizontal root above the surface. I had one on my juniper raft and just cut it off… old vestige. If you are nervous about doing so, cut halfway through this year to weaken, cut paste, then take the rest in the outyear.

Good Luck and Cheers
DSD sends

 

[gjones_42]

For the design of this clump, ideas I am getting stuck on are the number of trunks in the piece and how the pads come together for the separate trunks. It seems like I should have 5 or 7 trunks

Right!

Mostly I just like the branch structure and light/openness of scale to it. And the longer bare trunks could work with what you've got there.

Agreed. I especially like the way the foliage is arranged, since I am kind of confused by the idea of how to organize the pads on a juniper.... I can readily get behind this design, and it may be a jumping off point to get better organized and let things develop.

 

[gjones_42]

Thank you, DSD, for the concise input. This is incredibly valuable to structuring the many ideas floating around my head. I'll ask for clarification on a few of your points, hopefully without sounding too ignorant, for my own knowledge and others.

Watching this thread develop now for a bit…..

My two bits…. Cutting down to the chase…. …it’s too chaotic. Here’s my approach on these designs. Others may have better ideas, but this works for me. Three steps.

Can't agree more. It is both chaotic and eerily symmetrical, which I have no idea how the prior owner accomplished... Makes it unpleasant to look at.

1. A repot into some decent soil, as previously suggested, without a ton of root removal…. Junipers can take a lot, yet your tree is weak. Feed it well with something like Osmocote Plus and a 2-3 week combo of Fish emulsion/Humic/kelp for the next couple years. This will help push a lot of inner growth, which will give you many options down the line.
(For media I use 1:1:1:+ = Akadama: Pumice: Lava + 5% Biochar or horticultural charcoal. Works for me.)

What is the purpose of the repot right now, if it is already in an inorganic medium and seems to be behaving OK moisture-wise (water soaks in decently, doesn't stay too wet for too many days)? I've been toying with the idea of pulling it out just to get eyes on the root ball/how full the pot is/how the media is holding up, but this seems unnecessary.

2. A trim to open up the canopy… guessing you’re up on that technique by your write up. While doing so start from the bottom and focus on trimming off any junctions down to bifurcations (two ). The let her rip until next year.

Repeat for 2nd year. That should get the tree strong, the inner works cleaned up and ready to work hard. Likely need two years of this routine. Others might jump right in, your choice, I tend towards the conservative side. I don’t like dead bonsai.

Yes, I plan on thinning the foliage (lots of crap growth in that dense canopy) once spring rolls around and am in the middle of identifying what branches need to come off. Is removing the thin trunks/unwanted branches something I can safely do in the spring (maybe before new buds start to push?) or better to wait till fall?

3. Develop a design where each of the trunks can be clearly seen from the front. Start from the bottom. Remove anything non essential that interferes with this goal. Not sure I’d Jin anything… but your tree, your choice.

Working on my design ideas now to be able to act in the spring. There are obvious things to remove that I have tied down almost parallel to the pot so they are visually out of the way. Boy what a difference it makes. Following this along I end up with a nice open space in the center (normal for clump trees in nature) with 4 trunks on the left and 3 on the right. I may turn a trunk in the back into a jin, so there is a bit of deadwood in the back center contrasting the live growth to either side. Easier to make and then remove if bad than put it back after.

I want to wire the trunks up to and including the 1st bifurcation so I can do some crude positioning and help pick which side of the fork becomes the trunk and which becomes a side branch that'll be sacrificed once it backbuds. Season-wise, is this an OK time for it?

Also remove horizontal root above the surface. I had one on my juniper raft and just cut it off… old vestige. If you are nervous about doing so, cut halfway through this year to weaken, cut paste, then take the rest in the outyear.

Hah, you aren't the first to note that "flaw"... I like it at the moment, but I expect it will conflict with the design in the future (especially if I ever change the angle a bit) and will come off then...

 

[JackHammer]

IMO everything is spindly and about the same diameter 6 inches out from the base. I know I need to prune some undesired growth, open up space, and facilitate vigorous new growth. What I lack are the design ideas to select what to cut. so any more detailed suggestions and rationales would be appreciated.

If I don't understand the tree, I look at it and keep it alive until I do. Cutting a branch only takes a minute.

 

[RJG2]

Bonsai Q and Kimi's bonsai have some similar examples, albeit smaller and less leggy:

Kimi:

Bonsai Q:

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thank you, DSD, for the concise input. This is incredibly valuable to structuring the many ideas floating around my head. I'll ask for clarification on a few of your points, hopefully without sounding too ignorant, for my own knowledge and others.
Can't agree more. It is both chaotic and eerily symmetrical, which I have no idea how the prior owner accomplished... Makes it unpleasant to look at.


What is the purpose of the repot right now, if it is already in an inorganic medium and seems to be behaving OK moisture-wise (water soaks in decently, doesn't stay too wet for too many days)? I've been toying with the idea of pulling it out just to get eyes on the root ball/how full the pot is/how the media is holding up, but this seems unnecessary.

Just covering the bases… I actually did not see that you personally repotted recently, nor the medium. If it’s been awhile there’s nothing wrong with taking a look under the hood. If someone else you don’t know supposedly repotted, I’d get in there for sure. I’ve lots of stories to tell about this scenario going wrong…

Yes, I plan on thinning the foliage (lots of crap growth in that dense canopy) once spring rolls around and am in the middle of identifying what branches need to come off. Is removing the thin trunks/unwanted branches something I can safely do in the spring (maybe before new buds start to push?) or better to wait till fall?

Yes. Be cautious. Remember junipers carry most of their energy in the foliage rather than in the roots.

Working on my design ideas now to be able to act in the spring. There are obvious things to remove that I have tied down almost parallel to the pot so they are visually out of the way. Boy what a difference it makes. Following this along I end up with a nice open space in the center (normal for clump trees in nature) with 4 trunks on the left and 3 on the right. I may turn a trunk in the back into a jin, so there is a bit of deadwood in the back center contrasting the live growth to either side. Easier to make and then remove if bad than put it back after.

Good thoughts, Not sure there is room to create a convincing open space in the center once the foliage grows back in the entire clump would unite anyways. But if you like the concept you should pursue it.

Also not seeing a Jin helping in the close maze of trunks… I‘m not a fan of Jin’s in principle…. Yet I can see the need for you to experiment . Be sure to wire anything you intend to Jin right away in place as it will be hard to do so once the dead branch sets.

I want to wire the trunks up to and including the 1st bifurcation so I can do some crude positioning and help pick which side of the fork becomes the trunk and which becomes a side branch that'll be sacrificed once it backbuds. Season-wise, is this an OK time for it?

Ok for now, if it’s kept outside. Not if it’s inside. Once a juniper tree starts getting active, it’s best not to wire and bend as the cambium can separate easily…. ( I know many of us have done this, just a warning for newcomers..)

Hah, you aren't the first to note that "flaw"... I like it at the moment, but I expect it will conflict with the design in the future (especially if I ever change the angle a bit) and will come off then...

The “clump” almost looks like it was originally created like a raft….from the photos it looks like a vestige of the original process.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[gjones_42]

Just covering the bases… I actually did not see that you personally repotted recently, nor the medium. If it’s been awhile there’s nothing wrong with taking a look under the hood. If someone else you don’t know supposedly repotted, I’d get in there for sure. I’ve lots of stories to tell about this scenario going wrong…

You are correct. I have not repotted, and it was not repotted last year. I'll try to pull it up out of the pot a bit and take a look at the roots. I was hoping to avoid a repot so I can do some initial work with the foliage and not create too much stress with repotting and pruning.

Yes. Be cautious. Remember junipers carry most of their energy in the foliage rather than in the roots.

I'd estimate the branches I want to cull carry at most 20% of the foliar mass. After removal, I'd thin the foliage and limit any additional pruning so the total foliar removal is no more than 40-50%. Is this reasonable, or too aggressive for starters?

Good thoughts, Not sure there is room to create a convincing open space in the center once the foliage grows back in the entire clump would unite anyways. But if you like the concept you should pursue it.

Once I can prune it back some I'll do a photo update. There is a nice open space appearing in the lower 1/3 of the trunks and I'd try to keep it open for visibility. The upper canopy would definitely close over it.

Ok for now, if it’s kept outside. Not if it’s inside. Once a juniper tree starts getting active, it’s best not to wire and bend as the cambium can separate easily…. ( I know many of us have done this, just a warning for newcomers..)

I have it in an unheated garage, and have been monitoring daytime temps around 30-43 next to the juniper with outdoor daytime temps from 35-45 generally. Dormancy seems to be holding, based on the coloration (overall nice bronze tips) and lack of new buds. If I were to wire now and do some minor bends while still dormant, would that be safe? By minor I mean no more than 60 degrees of arc (like from 12 to 2 o clock or visa versa).

I'm a bit stuck in conceiving the design by the overlap of the foliage/trunks. I'm trying to figure out how to stagger the angles of the trunks and I think wire would help. BUt if I can't wire, I'll just be patient till I can...

 

[gjones_42]

If I don't understand the tree, I look at it and keep it alive until I do. Cutting a branch only takes a minute.

Yea, I only want to cut some obvious bad branches. For example, there are 2 coming straight out towards the front and they are the most spindly of them all. For now, I tied them down out of the way visually, and it has really enabled the thought process to evolve. The rest are a bit harder to select and I don't intend to prune hastily. I think wiring, when appropriate, will help the understanding evolve

 

[JackHammer]

Yea, I only want to cut some obvious bad branches. For example, there are 2 coming straight out towards the front and they are the most spindly of them all. For now, I tied them down out of the way visually, and it has really enabled the thought process to evolve. The rest are a bit harder to select and I don't intend to prune hastily. I think wiring, when appropriate, will help the understanding evolve

You can also take a picture and use Photoshop to see what the tree would look like without a branch.
Other thought - sometimes you might like spindly branches because they can make the contrast between the trunk and branches larger. I don't think it applies in this scenario.

 

[gjones_42]

You can also take a picture and use Photoshop to see what the tree would look like without a branch.

I tried this but it didn't help with where foliage from a trunk in the front covers the branching pattern in the trunk behind it. I've had my wife be an extra pair of hands to hold branches to the side so I can step back and look, but that isn't the most sustainable design approach, hah. If I get bored I'll rig something up with my work bench pegboard so I can gently move different portions to a given side.

Other thought - sometimes you might like spindly branches because they can make the contrast between the trunk and branches larger. I don't think it applies in this scenario.

100% I agree. I'm focused on removing the spindly trunks (i.e., originating from the base of the clump) not branches. Once I get an idea of structure, the spindly branches will be key to giving it a tree vibe, instead of the current bush vibe.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

You are correct. I have not repotted, and it was not repotted last year. I'll try to pull it up out of the pot a bit and take a look at the roots. I was hoping to avoid a repot so I can do some initial work with the foliage and not create too much stress with repotting and pruning.

Health first…. Design later. Reversing priorities or trying to do all at once is a classic Bonsai error. Be patient.

I'd estimate the branches I want to cull carry at most 20% of the foliar mass. After removal, I'd thin the foliage and limit any additional pruning so the total foliar removal is no more than 40-50%. Is this reasonable, or too aggressive for starters?

One can always prune…. Assure the tree is healthy and has positive momentum before working the foliage .

Once I can prune it back some I'll do a photo update. There is a nice open space appearing in the lower 1/3 of the trunks and I'd try to keep it open for visibility. The upper canopy would definitely close over it.


I have it in an unheated garage, and have been monitoring daytime temps around 30-43 next to the juniper with outdoor daytime temps from 35-45 generally. Dormancy seems to be holding, based on the coloration (overall nice bronze tips) and lack of new buds. If I were to wire now and do some minor bends while still dormant, would that be safe? By minor I mean no more than 60 degrees of arc (like from 12 to 2 o clock or visa versa).

Doing bends now is appropriate. Study up on wiring if you haven’t. Bonsai Mirai has three excellent How to videos…. At least two are on YouTube.

I'm a bit stuck in conceiving the design by the overlap of the foliage/trunks. I'm trying to figure out how to stagger the angles of the trunks and I think wire would help. BUt if I can't wire, I'll just be patient till I can...

Yes be patient. You’d be surprised how looking at a tree over time can deepen one’s understanding.

Once all is said you are the one that will see the tree every day…. if you are happy with your design no one else matters…. It is a first project after all!

Please remember we aren’t there to see the actual situation. Also don’t know what your actual skill level is, wiring and repotting etc. yet Juniper are one of the two best imho trees to start off with (azaleas are the other). Both are very forgiving if you treat these properly .

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[bwaynef]

I'd suggest now's a good time to work. Prune away any obvious branches, but I'd suggest if they have ANY heft to them, to leave them long and create jin with them. Wire everything else. Once wired, you can move things out of the way and see how it'd look gone ...w/o having to sprout extra hands. Lay the remaining branches out. Remove stuff that's growing down. Remove growth within ½" of the crotch. Preserve any growth you may cut back to eventually. Err on the side of leaving too much.

It sounds like your temps aren't so dire as to worry about much damage from freezing temps once wired, though it will be more susceptible to damage from the cold. I think you're good.

 

[gjones_42]

Health first…. Design later. Reversing priorities or trying to do all at once is a classic Bonsai error. Be patient.

Poignant words. I'll respect the process and not put the cart before the horse. Can't design a dead tree I suppose.

Please remember we aren’t there to see the actual situation. Also don’t know what your actual skill level is, wiring and repotting etc. yet Juniper are one of the two best imho trees to start off with (azaleas are the other). Both are very forgiving if you treat these properly .

Novice with bonsai, but rather experienced with horticulture overall and the nuances of plant care for a wide variety of species. Obviously, never repotted a bonsai in this inorganic media, but I've repotted countless plants in all sorts of soils (including the clay and sand garbage I have outback) and am intimately familiar with healthy/unhealthy roots, and pruning back roots when transplanting... Wiring wise I've done some work with scrap branches I cut off landscape trees after reading up/watching youtube as much as I can. At some point I have to reduce these ideas into practice and learn firsthand.

For now I'm trying to gauge a good sequence for this tree in need of a redesign and keeping it conservative. It seems like most books/articles/videos tackle a redesign by pruning, shaping, and repotting in that sequence and in one go, which seems extremely unrealistic for me.

 

[gjones_42]

I'd suggest now's a good time to work. Prune away any obvious branches, but I'd suggest if they have ANY heft to them, to leave them long and create jin with them. Wire everything else. Once wired, you can move things out of the way and see how it'd look gone ...w/o having to sprout extra hands. Lay the remaining branches out. Remove stuff that's growing down. Remove growth within ½" of the crotch. Preserve any growth you may cut back to eventually. Err on the side of leaving too much.

It sounds like your temps aren't so dire as to worry about much damage from freezing temps once wired, though it will be more susceptible to damage from the cold. I think you're good.

To clarify, are you basing "now" on January temps in your climate (more like my March/April, probably) or the temps I noted? I expect we'll have a few subarctic cold snaps over the next 4-6 weeks and not sure insulation would be enough to prevent dipping below 32F

*Edit: why would freezing impact a wired branch? Is it thermal conductivity of the wire, stiffness in the branch as it swells a bit from freezing? Something else?

 

[bwaynef]

I based my comment on the temps you noted, but re-reading those are daytime temps so I wasn't accounting for that. If you can keep them ~28ºF or higher, I'd suspect you could get by with it. If you're not sure you can do that, it won't hurt to wait a bit. (Some of my contorted J. procumbens 'Nana' (pronanas) have been subjected to 25ºF since wiring and don't seem to have any ill effect, but you have to choose how comfortable you are.)

Wiring creates micro-tears along the branch. Analogies always break down, but its like working out. You cause harm to your muscles before you get the results you're after. Wiring causes damage to the tree which is repaired allowing the branch to hold its position. The physical damage by wiring is what makes wired branches more susceptible to cold damage. Nothing to do with conductivity.

 

[gjones_42]

I based my comment on the temps you noted, but re-reading those are daytime temps so I wasn't accounting for that. If you can keep them ~28ºF or higher, I'd suspect you could get by with it. If you're not sure you can do that, it won't hurt to wait a bit. (Some of my contorted J. procumbens 'Nana' (pronanas) have been subjected to 25ºF since wiring and don't seem to have any ill effect, but you have to choose how comfortable you are.)

Makes sense. We tend to get nasty arctic weather late January - mid February, so I'll wait till the other side of that before doing anything just to be safe. I'll keep thinking of ideas for a design while I wait...

Btw, the photo you had posted was super helpful. Idk if you can read any of the text, but am I seeing it right that all 4 images are of the same plant? If so, would you say the side view image has the front to the left and back to the right?

Wiring creates micro-tears along the branch. Analogies always break down, but its like working out. You cause harm to your muscles before you get the results you're after. Wiring causes damage to the tree which is repaired allowing the branch to hold its position. The physical damage by wiring is what makes wired branches more susceptible to cold damage. Nothing to do with conductivity.

Right on. I think that is a great analogy.

*Edit: Thinking about microtears, should I not be bending the juniper by hand? I've been gauging where I can bend some of the branches to get some ideas on placement but maybe that's not appropriate in the temperature