Potential Literati or ??? ... compost

[rockm]

"What I’ve seen with many WS trees here on the west coast is that any branches facing the prevailing winds gets broken off and most of the rest get “trained” in a big “v” (from the trunk) with many of the main branches being parrellel to each other."

I think this is a common trap some fall into. The thought is that if something happens in nature, it can simply be transferred to bonsai. Don't fall for it. Nature is not bonsai and vice versa. Bonsai is an interpretation of nature. It is not nature itself. While nature is critical to bonsai, it's raw images rarely translate literally to our art--I've seen more artistically graceless, ugly and ungainly trees in nature than I have seen awe inspiring ones. Nature has no artistic aims. We do.

At its heart, bonsai deals with humans, not trees. It is not about raw natural imagery. It is about human interpretation of natural images. The human eye is a tricky thing to deal with. It instinctively sees things that are dissonant and "awkward" even if it's "natural." The eye seeks order and some harmony (even if it's asymmetrical harmony). It seeks pattern and flow in images. Without it, the eye loses its way and gets confused.

As for this tree, in the last image, it's unclear if that is the front of the tree. If it is, the branches need to be spread out to the sides. As it is now, it looks like the tree is trying to escape...I'd get rid of the long jinned apex by breaking it off two thirds of the way down.

 

[mcpesq817]

So what I think you are both saying is to put more movement into the three prevailing branches to emulate the movement of the main trunk??!! They were long and thin so I was able to shorten them up by putting in some bends, so now I'll have to arrange them into a more flowing movement.
Thanks again.
Cheers G

Hi G,

I think Tom and I had the same comment, and I would echo his response to you. Stated simply, when wiring movement into your branches, think about wiring movement in three dimensions, rather than just a two dimensional plane. I find that analyzing your wiring from various angles (front, sides, back and top) will help you catch whether you have 2D or 3D movement.

 

[Chris Johnston]

It's also important to know that one wiring typically doesn't finish branch setting work with respect to nursery material. In other words, if this year your side-to side movement is allowed to set, next year put in up-and-down movement. It works out much more naturally than trying to go all directions in one wiring. There's only so many bends you can put in a branch at one time.

 

[ghues]

More work

Thanks for your comments Rockm – I generally see your points and “It seeks pattern and flow in images. Without it, the eye loses its way and gets confused”. I do lean towards the fact that when we admire Mother Nature’s creations (tree forms in the wild) it’s the memory recognition of the form, texture, design that we try to emulate (look at all the shari and jin…people try to mimic what they‘ve seen). Although young at this hobby I really admire and strive for J.N.’s mantra of making my Bonsai look like a tree and to be honest I couldn’t give a “rats’ a—“ about designing my tree to look perfect for the camera’s lens but instead I’m trying to provide or evoke a feeling live and in person.
As far as “it's unclear if that is the front of the tree”….this tree is still in development and I haven’t decided on a front yet, I’ll wait and let the front find me, as I might use it in a seascape landscape seeing or plant it on a rock….but for now it will go into a round training pot and I’ll worry about a front if and when I ever decide to show it.

mcpesq817/Tom – thanks again here are a couple of shots of last nights work…..your words of wisdom really worked…. I think?

Hey Chris –“one wiring typically doesn't finish branch setting work with respect to nursery material” This is a yamidori that I’ve had for 7 years or so and I just let it grow and the branches are long and flexible so I was able to add a couple of bends as shown. Are you saying that too much bending can be damaging to the branches/tree?

I must admit that forums like this really help us transform our trees and minds…… so thanks everyone for your comments as it feels like an on line study group. Lol.
Cheers Graham

 

[mcpesq817]

Hi again Graham,

Looks better. At this point, I would leave the tree alone because you might be continually weakening the branches if you are tweaking the design. Over time, you can get more movement in the tree with wiring and by using available backbudding.

As for designing trees generally, you might find the information in the following links useful:

http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_StylingForms.html

http://www.andyrutledge.com/book/contents/langofartistry.htm

Hope that helps!

 

[ghues]

Thanks mcpesq817, Harry's site Bonsia4me has been a great inspiration to me and I've printed that particular article (and many of his others)..... and they reside in my 3 ring binder on my work bench. I'll do the same with the A. R. article.
Although I'm somewhat challenged in my artwork I do try to sketch out the basic's of the tree and see what forms/possibilities are available but with this pine, I studied it from all angles, tilting the pot ..etc and envisoned the trees around the site I collected it and the rest flowed together smoothly.....loosing myself in it and before I knew it 3 hours had passed.
Cheers G.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Graham, my point was that when I've coiled wire correctly on a long straight branch, there are only so many different ways I can bend the branch effectively. I've tried in the past, adding vertical and horizontal movement to branches, and they always come out looking artificial. Better to set some moves and put more on later...you'll be able to vary the length and sharpness of the bends to look more natural. And yes, trying to do too much to a branch can endanger the branch.

 

[ghues]

Thanks Chris, I hear you on that.
Although its hard to tell from the photos, (well easy to tell that my wiring sucks, but for some of it my aim was to wire the branches in loose coils rather than super tight along a branch). What I attempted to do was to bend the branch along one angle/axis until the next major branch, then bend the next branch section another direction but not too sharp an angle (up then down, left then right, or up then right,then down, then left)....trying to mimic a natural growth pattern with strong winds in mind.
I'll let these set up, take the wire off before it cuts in and do it all over again.
Cheers Graham

 

[treebeard55]

...
So the question i would ask when looking at this pine is, "can this potted plant evoke a mental image of a believable tree?" ...

well said!

 

[TheSteve]

One word-

Raft.

I think it would look pretty good.

 

[ghues]

One word-

Raft.

I think it would look pretty good.

Hey Steve,
Could you expand on that for me?
Cheers Graham

 

[DaveV]

I would tend to agree with Steve, a raft would look pretty nice.

 

[rockm]

raft style--sinuous style. root connected style are all in the same family of multiple trunks from single trunk laid on its side--branches become trunks:
http://blogs.knowledgeofbonsai.org/rob_kempinski/2008/12/14/raft-style-japanese-black-pine/

 

[ghues]

raft style--sinuous style. root connected style are all in the same family of multiple trunks from single trunk laid on its side--branches become trunks:
http://blogs.knowledgeofbonsai.org/rob_kempinski/2008/12/14/raft-style-japanese-black-pine/

Thanks Rockm, I do understand the basics of the common styles, that's why I asked Steve to explain how he sees my shore pine as a raft style........... seeing as though it has been designed to have one main trunk?! I'm not about to lay this guy on its side for I just don't see it. Maybe Steve just viewed the first pictures of the thread?
Cheers Graham

 

[TheSteve]

You would lay the tree on it's side. Getting it to root up the trunk may be too much to hope for but the right amount of bending and angle change at repotting should work. The branches will then be your trunks.

 

[ghues]

You would lay the tree on it's side. Getting it to root up the trunk may be too much to hope for but the right amount of bending and angle change at repotting should work. The branches will then be your trunks.

Hey; Steve,
I get the general idea but with only 3 main branches left (which are evenly spaced) I just don't think it would look that good or work out that well for this tree?
However the idea and concept of the raft style is interesting and R. K.'s one is very nice, with its multiple trunks/stems/trees.
It also reminded me of some of the things I see in the forests around here.....where large old growth trees have been blown over but aren't laying on the ground but are at an incredible angle defying gravity……now there’s a challenge.
Cheers Graham

 

[rockm]

The option of laying this tree on its side to use it as a raft is a definite option for this tree. I wouldn't discount it immediately, although rooting can be problematic with conifers.

As a literati, it's an iffy candidate, and using literati style as one of last resort usually produces mediocre literati. This tree isn't really suited to it as the trunk lacks the age, character and heft that a good literati trunk needs. As a raft, there is more to consider

 

[edprocoat]

I too love the tree as it is, the only thing I might do, after much consideration, is to remove the third large branch on the left and the bottom branch on the right. The one on the left to open up the trunk, and the bottom one on the right as its hugging the pot. But as it is it certainly appeals to me.

ed

 

[edprocoat]

I seen raft style mentioned here so I thought I would share a pic I took of a tree that blew over in a storm two years ago. This tree left a large crater at its base where it pulled up a lot of soil when it toppled, it has since filled in, I think from the soil washing off the exposed roots and has been growing ever since. the fence was just added sometime this summer and is only about 3 feet from the trees base. Neat example of a natural raft style tree.

ed

 

[Goon Salo]

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