[Plumerias] Hoping for help with setting-up a multi-trunked 'specimen', propaged side-by-side (pics)

[SU2]

I had a huge pile of plumeria branches after pruning a couple large landscape specimen and they sat for almost a week so I had to figure something out (I didn't yet know that it's supposedly beneficial to let them sit before sticking/propagating them, to let the wounds callous; am unsure if IBA should be used before/after the callous forms..)

I dislike plumerias, they're the epitome of a leggy tree, and was fighting the urge to just throw them away when it hit me- if I propagated them side-by-side (like, 3-10 sticks literally touching each other as they're being propagated/rooted), and then pruned as often as possible/safe, that with a year or two of good growth I'd have something starting to take the shape of a bonsai!

Am I right in thinking this? So far as I can imagine it, the trunks will grow and gain girth while also fusing together, and in the time it takes for them to fuse together to look like a single trunk instead of 3-10, well, that time should be about long enough to have done enough rounds of pruning that there's a significant # of growing-tips coming from that 'trunk' - the trunk-thickness, a 1:6 ratio or squatter with a densely ramified canopy at the right height...am I missing anything? I guess I imagine trees like this:

are created in such a way, like that ^ crepe (I think, am unsure what specie / where I found that beautiful picture!!)

So to that end, here's the start of my first two 'trees' in this manner:


I'm not only hoping for thoughts on whether this will work, or whether I'm missing something (for instance, is my 2yrs estimate for 'kinda looks like a pre-bonsai' on-point? Or more like 5yrs? I guess I'm thinking 1-2yrs is enough that they'd have fused and lignified, it may be a trunk that shows it *was* trunkS, like the crape posted above only far more pronounced, but it'd be '1 specimen' at that point in appearance) Am also hoping to know whether the ones I already made are doomed, as I cut the bottoms of those right before sticking (and treated the fresh wounds with IBA) and supposedly they *need* to callous? I swear I've done regular plumeria stickings, w/o letting them callous, that were just fine.. Also want to find just when I'm supposed to be applying IBA if callousing is a good idea, should it get the IBA when cut or after calloused/ready-to-stick? Lastly, is this a fool's-errand to be beginning in Dec., in zone 9a in FL? We had days in the high 70's last week but are currently in a cold period (it's barely 60deg at 10.30a right now!), I know it's not an optimal time but I've got the material, it'd be nice to have it rooted by spring so it can spend spring/summer growing instead of rooting, so really want to get it going now which leads to my final two Q's Can plumeria trunk-sticks, without growing-tips, be propagated or do my cuttings need a growing-tip? If I can propagate sticks w/o growing-tips, since they'd have no foliage could I keep them indoors? There'd be enough light for the hormonal/biological cues and a warmer temperature, if they're w/o leaves they don't need real sunlight right, not til rooted and sprouting first leaves'-buds? Because the two I made yesterday were 'trials', I cut & rinsed & stored the rest and want to set them up asap, once I find answers to all my uncertainties here!


Thanks for any help, even guesses would be appreciated for any of my Q's as I just love the idea of this if it'd work as I'm thinking, but it'd be a real PITA to prep, make and wait on several more only to find the idea had some fatal flaw I missed, or that there wouldn't be any semblance of fusing for 3-5yrs more likely, anything like that!!

 

[theone420]

don't they have huge leaves? all my plumerias have leaves almost a foot long. and the branches wont be small so ramification will be hard.

I have a few seed pods from our plumerias I will be planting this year. they say it takes 3 years before they bloom and you wont know what color you get until it blooms.

no need for rooting hormone I never use it. I have planted trees that sat on the ground for 3 weeks and they grow fine just stick it in the ground and water it. also have done fresh cuttings but better results with a calloused cut.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

The problem with plumeria - as you pointed out - is that it doesn't throw any fine/twiggy growth. The smallest bud will start as a branch with 1" diameter. So I don't know about it ever being effective as bonsai - unless it were a MASSIVE specimen.

However plumeria doesn't have to be twiggy in landscape. Just apply standard bonsai practices to it to develop ramification on a "tree" scale. And you are correct - when you prune plumeria you have to let the wound site on the cuttings dry and callous before planting - or else the entire cutting runs the risk of rotting from the base up. They don't "need" to dry - it is an anti-fungal step. No rooting hormone necessary - just let the wound site dry and then stick it in some open mix and water well. They remind me of cacti or succulents is this way.

Good news is at this time of year people are looking for plumeria cuttings, so you can often sell/swap them on Craigslist for other colors.

 

[theone420]

here are a couple of mine first one is about 12 feet tall and the second one about 8 -9 feet tall. as you can see they can look pretty amazing as full size specimen but the branches never get any thinner than 1" diameter. the trunk on the 12ft tall tree is a little more than a foot wide at the ground


pics were taken in august when it was well over 110 degrees outside thats why the flowers are almost white. The spring bloom is bright pink.

 

[CamdenJim]

I guess I imagine trees like this:
View attachment 170871
are created in such a way, like that ^ crepe (I think, am unsure what specie / where I found that beautiful picture!!)

I think that's an adenium in that photo, and if it is, it wasn't created the way you're thinking. Mother nature took care of that in the DNA. They just grow that way, silly things.

 

[SU2]

don't they have huge leaves? all my plumerias have leaves almost a foot long. and the branches wont be small so ramification will be hard.

I have a few seed pods from our plumerias I will be planting this year. they say it takes 3 years before they bloom and you wont know what color you get until it blooms.

no need for rooting hormone I never use it. I have planted trees that sat on the ground for 3 weeks and they grow fine just stick it in the ground and water it. also have done fresh cuttings but better results with a calloused cut.

They do have huge leaves, am kind of expecting that, if subjected to lots of pinching, they'd reduce...unsure how to get them to reduce right now, I guess I could always clip them if I were at the point of having trunk and canopy-silhouette in-line!

And thanks re callousing! I've got a bunch of thicker ones ready to go but they're too-tall, their bottoms *are* calloused though so I shouldn't have any problem just cutting them shorter (from the top) and sticking, right?

The problem with plumeria - as you pointed out - is that it doesn't throw any fine/twiggy growth. The smallest bud will start as a branch with 1" diameter. So I don't know about it ever being effective as bonsai - unless it were a MASSIVE specimen.

However plumeria doesn't have to be twiggy in landscape. Just apply standard bonsai practices to it to develop ramification on a "tree" scale. And you are correct - when you prune plumeria you have to let the wound site on the cuttings dry and callous before planting - or else the entire cutting runs the risk of rotting from the base up. They don't "need" to dry - it is an anti-fungal step. No rooting hormone necessary - just let the wound site dry and then stick it in some open mix and water well. They remind me of cacti or succulents is this way.

Good news is at this time of year people are looking for plumeria cuttings, so you can often sell/swap them on Craigslist for other colors.

Yeah they really don't want to ramify well, I guess I'm thinking that starting with 5+ apical tips is going to help a lot in this regard, am also hoping they reduce when clustered/containerized like that but don't know, it could end-up just being a cool topiary-type specimen instead of a bonsai!

Thanks re callousing, the bottoms of my next round are calloused and ready, however I haven't cut them down to the right heights yet although I doubt that the top needs to callous before the bottom is stuck! Just hope that sticks w/o tips root as well as those with tips!!

And re cuttings, will check craigslist but they're so ubiquitous around here I'm not expecting much! Will give it a look though for sure, thanks

 

[SU2]

here are a couple of mine first one is about 12 feet tall and the second one about 8 -9 feet tall. as you can see they can look pretty amazing as full size specimen but the branches never get any thinner than 1" diameter. the trunk on the 12ft tall tree is a little more than a foot wide at the ground

View attachment 170890 View attachment 170889
pics were taken in august when it was well over 110 degrees outside thats why the flowers are almost white. The spring bloom is bright pink.

Awesome! Thanks for sharing those How long did they take to grow that height? I know they won't put out thin branches, I guess my math on ratios was wrong, am going to need to let it get taller / wider before I can get a canopy somewhat-matching the trunk, good to know because I'm about to stick the largest cuttings I have, will be grouping more together now than I'd planned on!

 

[SU2]

I think that's an adenium in that photo, and if it is, it wasn't created the way you're thinking. Mother nature took care of that in the DNA. They just grow that way, silly things.

No way really? My favorite tree jpg of all time is an adenium (but doesn't have that characteristic):


I googled them (adeniums) just now, found others like that - can you tell me anything about the growth-patterns, and how it facilitates stuff like that ^? That's my favorite tree ever, if I were to try making that style with a crape myrtle I'd cut a 10' specimen to 1.5', select ~5 primaries, and let them grow a decade - I mean those primary branches on that^ one had to have been grown after a trunk-chop right? Such an incredible specimen, huge inspiration to me!

 

[Carol 83]

I have an adenium, stupid thing. I've had it for years, and has NEVER bloomed. Apparently, it hates me. It dropped all of it's leaves when I brought it in this fall, and I thought good, now I can throw it away. But it bounced back, and is full of leaves again.

 

[theone420]

Awesome! Thanks for sharing those How long did they take to grow that height? I know they won't put out thin branches, I guess my math on ratios was wrong, am going to need to let it get taller / wider before I can get a canopy somewhat-matching the trunk, good to know because I'm about to stick the largest cuttings I have, will be grouping more together now than I'd planned on!

that one by the front of the house has probably been 12-15 years and the one by the wall about 10 years. I have the mother tree to all these as well and it is huge about 18ft tall and 25ft wide.

I am very interested in seeing how long it would take for the trunks to fuse together, it seems like a cool experiment. I might have to take a few cuttings and tie them together and see what happens. I have so many plumerias lying around my house in pots and the ground its sad. I'm such a plant hoarder. but is that a problem

 

[CamdenJim]

No way really? My favorite tree jpg of all time is an adenium (but doesn't have that characteristic):
...
I googled them (adeniums) just now, found others like that - can you tell me anything about the growth-patterns, and how it facilitates stuff like that ^? ...

@SU2
There are only a few things you need to know about adeniums (adenii?). Their "second name" is obesum. They're "fat" because they grow that fat caudex (looks like a trunk on a woody plant). If you get a good one, not started from a cutting, you can't stop the caudex from being "sturdy." Because they're succulents, not woody plants, many people don't consider them real bonsai, even when they're grown in bonsai pots. But they're a lot of fun to grow.

They're native to tropical sub-Saharan Africa, they'll drop leaves in cold weather, and they can't live through a freeze. I bring mine in every fall, it pouts, drops leaves, looks half dead, and I stick it in the garage until the weather warms up. Then I put it in full sun, feed and water it heavily, and it blooms like crazy for a month or so. This photo was made August 1. I've never gotten as many blossoms at one time as your photo shows, but I keep hoping!

 

[CamdenJim]

I have an adenium, stupid thing. I've had it for years, and has NEVER bloomed. Apparently, it hates me. It dropped all of it's leaves when I brought it in this fall, and I thought good, now I can throw it away. But it bounced back, and is full of leaves again.

They do that, @Carol 83 . When the weather warms up, put it in full sun and give it lots of water and fertilizer.

 

[Carol 83]

They do that, @Carol 83 . When the weather warms up, put it in full sun and give it lots of water and fertilizer.

I kept it at my office for years, so last year I brought it home and stuck it on the patio in full sun all summer, got watered and fertilized like everything else. Still no flowers. Guess there's always next year....I like yours a lot, gives me hope.

 

[SU2]

I'm such a plant hoarder. but is that a problem

No, no it is certainly not ;D

 

[SU2]

@SU2
There are only a few things you need to know about adeniums (adenii?). Their "second name" is obesum. They're "fat" because they grow that fat caudex (looks like a trunk on a woody plant). If you get a good one, not started from a cutting, you can't stop the caudex from being "sturdy." Because they're succulents, not woody plants, many people don't consider them real bonsai, even when they're grown in bonsai pots. But they're a lot of fun to grow.

They're native to tropical sub-Saharan Africa, they'll drop leaves in cold weather, and they can't live through a freeze. I bring mine in every fall, it pouts, drops leaves, looks half dead, and I stick it in the garage until the weather warms up. Then I put it in full sun, feed and water it heavily, and it blooms like crazy for a month or so. This photo was made August 1. I've never gotten as many blossoms at one time as your photo shows, but I keep hoping!
View attachment 171371

To be honest I thought that pic was a fused plumeria at first - I'm a bit confused at it being an adenium of the sort I posted, I mean the one I posted looks nothing like a succulent while yours does, the trunk of the one in my photo certainly looks like bark IMO...
(very neat specimen you've got regardless, btw!!!)

[edit- am referring to the adenium I posted a pic of in post#8, not the first post - in that one I can definitely see that it's not a 'normal' bark - in post#8 though it really looks like a regular tree...if the specimen in post#8 is something that grows a funny type of trunk and gets fat like that quickly- do you think ~5-10yrs would be long enough to have something approaching that picture, if you started w/ a trunk of roughly that girth?]

 

[CamdenJim]

To be honest I thought that pic was a fused plumeria at first - I'm a bit confused at it being an adenium of the sort I posted, I mean the one I posted looks nothing like a succulent while yours does, the trunk of the one in my photo certainly looks like bark IMO...
(very neat specimen you've got regardless, btw!!!)

[edit- am referring to the adenium I posted a pic of in post#8, not the first post - in that one I can definitely see that it's not a 'normal' bark - in post#8 though it really looks like a regular tree...if the specimen in post#8 is something that grows a funny type of trunk and gets fat like that quickly- do you think ~5-10yrs would be long enough to have something approaching that picture, if you started w/ a trunk of roughly that girth?]

The photo in post #1 appears in several places online and is identified as an adenium, not a crepe. That's all I was referring to initially.
Here's an example appearance of the photo:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rose-du-desert-ADENIUM-OBESUM-4-Graines-/262172217083
Check out the trunk/caudex in the photo on the Adenium page on Bonsai Empire:
https://www.bonsaiempire.com/tree-species/adenium
I'd like to have a trunk like that on my bench!

 

[SU2]

The photo in post #1 appears in several places online and is identified as an adenium, not a crepe. That's all I was referring to initially.
Here's an example appearance of the photo:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rose-du-desert-ADENIUM-OBESUM-4-Graines-/262172217083
Check out the trunk/caudex in the photo on the Adenium page on Bonsai Empire:
https://www.bonsaiempire.com/tree-species/adenium
I'd like to have a trunk like that on my bench!

OMG I never realized the 'desert rose' things were adenium?! Desert roses are neat because of their trunks but I always figured their foliage made them ineligible for bonsai (like a Magnolia's would), apparently desert roses are just one type of adenium and others are good stock for these types 'bonsai'? I wonder what type of adenium it is that I posted in post#8, that's literally my favorite tree jpg ever, must be some type of adenium w/ smaller foliage that was trunk-chopped and re-grown, right? How fast does yours grow? I've gotta figure out what cultivar that is in post-8 so I can get a smaller one (if they've got some type of acceptable growth rate at least!), I'd wait a decade for a specimen like that!!

[edit- upon reading those articles- thanks btw - seems they're 'vigorous' growers, am going to figure out the cultivar from #8 and see if the nursery can order me one!!]

 

[SU2]

Check out the trunk/caudex in the photo on the Adenium page on Bonsai Empire:
https://www.bonsaiempire.com/tree-species/adenium
I'd like to have a trunk like that on my bench!

Wow so they're like a succulent baobab tree! I see now that getting a great one wouldn't be remotely a sure-thing by growing-out material, in looking through google images there's just far too many with bulbous, spherical bases that look nothing like a real trunk, am guessing that many of the great ones are either collected & refined, or just the lucky % whose topiary/bonsai rose-bush just grew-in well / was pruned for ramification the whole time it was growing (would explain how to get to the one I posted in post#1, that I thought was a crape- that canopy at that height, whether it was a trunk-chop or grown-out, definitely has had many years of pruning to build that ramification, but so far as the trunk it seems it'd just be lottery/chance when growing-out a specimen, whether you'll get a good trunk or not - there seems to be just as many ugly / non-tree-looking trunks as there are good ones :/ 0

 

[theone420]

All the leaves are gone now I can show the natural ramification of a large plumeria


Amazing how strong these branches are. these limbs weigh a ton full of water.

 

[SU2]

All the leaves are gone now I can show the natural ramification of a large plumeria
View attachment 175759View attachment 175760View attachment 175761View attachment 175762

Amazing how strong these branches are. these limbs weigh a ton full of water.

WOW!!! That's by far the most densely-ramified plumeria I've ever seen!! That's awesome thanks for posting