Jiminsauga
Mame
I'd try the cherry tree, just for the variety of having a flowering spieces in your mix.
Please help me select some appropriate species from the native nursery
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Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Maidenhair/Ginkgo, is one of my top favs in my collection. The fall colors are stunning! I have a Chi Chi cultivar. Which is a dwarf, having smaller leaves than some I've read. They are way smaller than the trees in town lining the streets. I do know that.
The large leaf is from one I collected off the ginkgo that line the streets in my home town...the one on the right. Was one of the larger leaves I took from my own tree. To show a comparison I did a few years back.
Nothing beats the fall colors...
The large leaf is from one I collected off the ginkgo that line the streets in my home town...the one on the right. Was one of the larger leaves I took from my own tree. To show a comparison I did a few years back.
Nothing beats the fall colors...
Bagels
Sapling
From that list of oaks I'd think the dwarf chinkapin oak is your best bonsai choice of oak for small leaves. I'd avoid the bur oaks.
Ponderosa pines make excellent bonsai if you want to learn about pines.
As already mentioned the apples, plums, cherry are great for flowering styles.
I'd pick up an American Chestnut just because of their history and to propagate that species even outside bonsai (re: american Chestnut blight).
If you're going to look consider the leaf size and avoid the large leaf varieties and then select for interesting characteristics. Sounds like a fun nursery so have fun with it!
Ponderosa pines make excellent bonsai if you want to learn about pines.
As already mentioned the apples, plums, cherry are great for flowering styles.
I'd pick up an American Chestnut just because of their history and to propagate that species even outside bonsai (re: american Chestnut blight).
If you're going to look consider the leaf size and avoid the large leaf varieties and then select for interesting characteristics. Sounds like a fun nursery so have fun with it!
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I've been going deeper into this list, and want to share my results so far. This is for future people of Nebraska who stumble across this thread and any other Non-Nebraskans who might find it useful.
So when I'm talking about Native Trees, I'm basing what is "Native" off this book Handbook of Nebraska Trees: A Guide to the Native and Most Important Introduced Species. It was first written in 1919 and updated several times after.
Note: Nebraska lies in USDA Hardiness Zones 4 & 5.
What I learned from browsing that book is that Nebraska is kind of a meeting ground for Eastern and Western trees. Many tree species have entered the state from the Southeast Corner from Missouri and spread north along the Missouri and Platte Rivers. Others come down from the Rocky Mountains and slowly spread East.
During the 1800s Nebraska was an intimidating ocean of grass. Settlers brought trees with them to use for windbreaks, erosion control, fence posts and other agricultural needs. Arbor Day was created by Nebraska Newspaperman J Sterling Morton in 1872, and more than 1,000,000 trees were planted in Nebraska that day. Although trees are not the first thing people think about when they think about Nebraska, they are critical to life here.
The First Arbor Day
So I cross referenced the book above with the selection of trees from the Great Plains Nursery, which like I mentioned above I am excited to work with because they grow all their trees from seed in air pruning containers so I suspect they might be growing perfect starters without knowing. Also they're about half price since I can go in person.
The following is a list of "Native" Nebraska Trees that are available at this nursery and I that have a reasonable suspicion might work for bonsai (based on a lot of threads here where @Leo in N E Illinois dishes out a lot of great info).
Two Trees that are Native to Nebraska but not available at the nursery that should make good bonsai are:
The following is a list of trees that are also available at said nursery that I have a reasonable suspicion might work for bonsai.
And then finally... which trees do I have my sights on? When I take into account suggestions from this thread with inventory levels and cost at the nursery, these are my top 14 choices in no particular order. If I bought one of each it would cost me $350 or so plus maybe another $50 for a new bench to put them on. So I will have to pick and choose maybe five or seven. Seven is a magic number, maybe seven. Seven Trees.
Please take a look at my new and improved list. It should be much easier to read now and there is a lot more information about the trees in the hyperlinks.
For fun, list which 5 species you would pick from these lists?
So when I'm talking about Native Trees, I'm basing what is "Native" off this book Handbook of Nebraska Trees: A Guide to the Native and Most Important Introduced Species. It was first written in 1919 and updated several times after.
Note: Nebraska lies in USDA Hardiness Zones 4 & 5.
What I learned from browsing that book is that Nebraska is kind of a meeting ground for Eastern and Western trees. Many tree species have entered the state from the Southeast Corner from Missouri and spread north along the Missouri and Platte Rivers. Others come down from the Rocky Mountains and slowly spread East.
During the 1800s Nebraska was an intimidating ocean of grass. Settlers brought trees with them to use for windbreaks, erosion control, fence posts and other agricultural needs. Arbor Day was created by Nebraska Newspaperman J Sterling Morton in 1872, and more than 1,000,000 trees were planted in Nebraska that day. Although trees are not the first thing people think about when they think about Nebraska, they are critical to life here.
The First Arbor Day
So I cross referenced the book above with the selection of trees from the Great Plains Nursery, which like I mentioned above I am excited to work with because they grow all their trees from seed in air pruning containers so I suspect they might be growing perfect starters without knowing. Also they're about half price since I can go in person.
The following is a list of "Native" Nebraska Trees that are available at this nursery and I that have a reasonable suspicion might work for bonsai (based on a lot of threads here where @Leo in N E Illinois dishes out a lot of great info).
- Shadblow Serviceberry (Amelanchier Canadensis) bonsai?
- Hackberry (Celtis Occidentalis) bonsai?
- Honeylocust (Gleditsia Triacanthos) bonsai?
- Ironwood (Ostrya Virginiana) bonsai?
- Eastern Cottonwood (Populus Deltoides) bonsai?
- Chokecherry (Prunus Virginiana) bonsai?
- White Oak (Quercus Alba) bonsai?
- Swamp White Oak (Quercus Bicolor) bonsai?
- Shingle Oak (Quercus Imbricaria) bonsai?
- Bur Oak (Quercus Macrocarpa) bonsai?
- Dwarf Chinkapin Oak (Quercus Prinoides) bonsai?
- Black Locust (Robina Pseudoacacia) bonsai?
- American Elm (Ulmus Americana 'Endurance') bonsai?
- Red Elm (Ulmus Rubra) bonsai?
- Eastern Redcedar (Juniperus Virginiana 'Taylor') bonsai?
- White Spruce (Picea Glauca) bonsai?
- Black Hills Spruce (Picea Glauca var. Densata) bonsai?
- Ponderosa Pine (Pinus Ponderosa) bonsai?
Two Trees that are Native to Nebraska but not available at the nursery that should make good bonsai are:
- Paper Birch (Betula Papyrifera)
- Red Mulberry (Morus Rubra)
The following is a list of trees that are also available at said nursery that I have a reasonable suspicion might work for bonsai.
- Red Maple (Acer Rubrum) bonsai?
- Tatarian Maple (Acer Tataricum) bonsai?
- Serviceberry (Amelanchier X Grandiflora) bonsai?
- Maidenhair Tree (Ginkgo Biloba) bonsai?
- Prairie Fire Crabapple (Malus 'Prairiefire') bonsai?
- Spring Snow Crabapple (Malus 'Spring Snow') bonsai?
- Hill's Oak (Quercus Ellipsoidalis) bonsai?
- English Oak (Quercus Robur) bonsai?
- Red Oak (Quercus Rubra) bonsai?
- Bald Cypress (Taxodium Distichum) bonsai?
- Princeton American Elm (Ulmus Americana 'Princeton') bonsai?
- New Horizon Elm (Ulmus 'New Horizon') bonsai?
- Regent Serviceberry (Amelanchier Alnifolia 'Regent') bonsai?
- Tiny Wine Ninebark (Physocarpus Opulifolius 'SMPOTW') bonsai?
- American Plum (Prunus Americana) bonsai?
- Fragrant Sumac (Rhus Aromatica 'Gro-Low') bonsai? bonsai?
- Snowberry (Symphoricarpos Albus) bonsai?
- Koreanspice Viburnum (Viburnum CarlesII 'SpiceBaby') bonsai?
- Montmorency Cherry (Prunus Montmorency) bonsai?
And then finally... which trees do I have my sights on? When I take into account suggestions from this thread with inventory levels and cost at the nursery, these are my top 14 choices in no particular order. If I bought one of each it would cost me $350 or so plus maybe another $50 for a new bench to put them on. So I will have to pick and choose maybe five or seven. Seven is a magic number, maybe seven. Seven Trees.
- Eastern Cottonwood (only because it is the State Tree)
- White Oak
- Shingle Oak
- Dwarf Chinkapin Oak
- Red Elm
- White Spruce
- Black Hills Spruce
- Ponderosa Pine
- Red Maple
- Ginkgo
- English Oak
- Bald Cypress
- Princeton American Elm
- Regent Serviceberry
Please take a look at my new and improved list. It should be much easier to read now and there is a lot more information about the trees in the hyperlinks.
For fun, list which 5 species you would pick from these lists?
Bagels
Sapling
If it was me, I wouldn't want to get attached to specific species, once you narrow down your list but examine each tree and pick the ones that have the best characteristics for bonsai. Assuming there were equal prospects in that list my choices would be:
Dwarf Chinkapin Oak, Ponderosa Pine, Red Maple, Eastern Cottonwood, Black Hills Spruce
You could also take into account the style of the tree. All 5 being formal upright might get boring. I'd want a windswept, literati, oak style, clump to keep things interesting if possible.
Dwarf Chinkapin Oak, Ponderosa Pine, Red Maple, Eastern Cottonwood, Black Hills Spruce
You could also take into account the style of the tree. All 5 being formal upright might get boring. I'd want a windswept, literati, oak style, clump to keep things interesting if possible.
Mikecheck123
Omono
I'm a big fan of American elms for their amazing toughness and incredible growth, but get the Endurance, not the Princeton.
Princeton elms grow long and skinny with gigantic leaves. I have one that's 15 feet tall but only an inch thick at the trunk base!
Leaf pic compared to regular american elm:
That's a good tip. Thank you!
Leo in N E Illinois
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I am late to this thread, but hope I can help. The list from the nursery includes MANY non-native trees to Nebraska. I did not take the time to go through the book, but if being native is an important trait, you need to research more before you buy. Second, you gotten some "iffy" suggestions as "great for bonsai", those were species considered possible but have significant problems. Not all trees make good bonsai. For example, eastern cottonwood, Populus deltoides. Yes, it has been used for bonsai by a small few, it has large leaves that don't reduce well, long internodes and a coarse branching structure. The only "exhibition quality bonsai" I've seen done with eastern cottonwood were near 4 feet tall. BIG. I have seen one or two "mame" but really they were artistic in their freakiness, one stem and a single leaf, more like Ikibana rather than bonsai. The point is, not everything makes good bonsai. Some species are easier to work with than others.
Two excellent species on the list are Carpinus caroliniana and Ostrya virginiana. For Nebraska I would suggest you try the Ostrya virginiana as it is more tolerant of low humidity and summer heat/sun than Carpinus caroliniana. The Ostrya comes from more upland locations, where Carpinus tend to be understory trees near streams in very moist settings.
I would definitely give bur oak consideration - it has the coarsest bark, the most rugged, fissured bark of any oak that is winter hardy to zone 4 in North America. Only the Mediterranean cork oak has thicker bark, and the cork oak will not take cold much below freezing. Certainly not Nebraska cold. Leaves are HUGE on young trees, but I found you can get leaves under 2 inches with ramification. Definitely consider working with it. It is a "problem species" because of leaf size on trees with only a few branches. But as the number of branches goes up, the leaf size will come down.
Your list with my comments
Hope this helps.
Also add
Pinus banksiana, Jack pine, very winter hardy, even if not native to your area. Nice short needles. Try this in preference over Scotts pine.
Pinus contorta var latifolia - the Lodgepole pine - closely related to Pinus banksiana, if you can't get one, get the other. Both pines are worthy enough that even raising them from seed is desirable.
Two excellent species on the list are Carpinus caroliniana and Ostrya virginiana. For Nebraska I would suggest you try the Ostrya virginiana as it is more tolerant of low humidity and summer heat/sun than Carpinus caroliniana. The Ostrya comes from more upland locations, where Carpinus tend to be understory trees near streams in very moist settings.
I would definitely give bur oak consideration - it has the coarsest bark, the most rugged, fissured bark of any oak that is winter hardy to zone 4 in North America. Only the Mediterranean cork oak has thicker bark, and the cork oak will not take cold much below freezing. Certainly not Nebraska cold. Leaves are HUGE on young trees, but I found you can get leaves under 2 inches with ramification. Definitely consider working with it. It is a "problem species" because of leaf size on trees with only a few branches. But as the number of branches goes up, the leaf size will come down.
Your list with my comments
- Eastern Cottonwood (only because it is the State Tree) - bad for bonsai
- White Oak - pretty good. If you have Quercus bicolor - swamp white oak - it is more adaptable to various soil conditions than Q. alba, otherwise looks quite similar.
- Shingle Oak - bark is not very rough, but worth a try
- Dwarf Chinkapin Oak - nice small leaf size, might be slower to "trunk up"
- Red Elm - excellent
- White Spruce -excellent - avoid named cultivars, go for the normal from the wild type. Named cultivars will be grafted, grafts are difficult to deal with without experience.
- Black Hills Spruce - excellent
- Ponderosa Pine - seed raised stock is very poor choice as needles are very long and do not reduce. Collected 100 year old specimens are "forgiven" the long needles because the trunks are so cool. Buy a 100 year old specimen from Andy Smith at Golden Arrow Bonsai, in Deadwood SD. Or make the trip over to SD and collect yourself a 100 year old Ponderosa. Do not bother with seedlings.
- Red Maple - Acer rubra - good but go big. Shoot for tree closer to a meter tall, don't try to make a small bonsai with it. Leaves and Lead petioles will not reduce in proportions for small bonsai
- Ginkgo - not native but excellent for bonsai. In a pot roots will need some temperature protection in winter, even though in the ground they are hardy
- English Oak - not native, over-used in USA. We have so many native oaks that are better, no reason to clutter up your bench with foreign crap when a native bur oak, or white oak or chinquapin oak will be much better AND is native.
- Bald Cypress - you may have winter hardiness issues. Roots in a pot are really zone 6 hardy, you will need to protect the tree some in winter, even though in the ground it is hardy.
- Princeton American Elm - This is a disease resistant hybrid. It is likely to be grafted. Avoid grafted plants.
- Regent Serviceberry - excellent bonsai, especially good for smaller size bonsai. Slow to trunk up for big bonsai, excellent for smaller bonsai. Needs near full sun to get good blooming. Tolerates shade well and is incredibly winter hardy.
Hope this helps.
Also add
Pinus banksiana, Jack pine, very winter hardy, even if not native to your area. Nice short needles. Try this in preference over Scotts pine.
Pinus contorta var latifolia - the Lodgepole pine - closely related to Pinus banksiana, if you can't get one, get the other. Both pines are worthy enough that even raising them from seed is desirable.
Leo, thank you for the great advice. You're also in 5b and I found your name in many threads of a similar nature. There was a thread the other day about noobs like me standing on the shoulders of those who have been practicing bonsai for years, and this is what I want to do.
I realize many of the trees are not "Native" per-say and more likely fall under the "important introduced species" part of the spectrum (and more than a few hybrids). Practicing with trees that have some sort of cultural significance to my home state is kind of my romantic ideal, but I am a realist and mostly just want to practice with species that will survive in the climate here.
Updated list:
Would it be crazy to buy a species just to do cuttings from it down the line?
Thanks again Leo!
I realize many of the trees are not "Native" per-say and more likely fall under the "important introduced species" part of the spectrum (and more than a few hybrids). Practicing with trees that have some sort of cultural significance to my home state is kind of my romantic ideal, but I am a realist and mostly just want to practice with species that will survive in the climate here.
Updated list:
- Bur Oak (Quercus Macrocarpa) bonsai?
- Ironwood (Ostrya Virginiana) bonsai?
- White Oak (Quercus Alba) bonsai?
- Swamp White Oak (Quercus Bicolor) bonsai?
- Red Elm (Ulmus Rubra) bonsai?
- White Spruce (Picea Glauca) bonsai?
- Black Hills Spruce (Picea Glauca var. Densata) bonsai?
- Maidenhair Tree (Ginkgo Biloba) bonsai?
- Bald Cypress (Taxodium Distichum) bonsai? (I plan to bury the pot in the raised garden over winter. Might even pop a greenhouse over it).
- Regent Serviceberry (Amelanchier Alnifolia 'Regent') bonsai?
- American Elm (Ulmus Americana 'Endurance') bonsai? (if it is not grafted)
Would it be crazy to buy a species just to do cuttings from it down the line?
Thanks again Leo!
Leo in N E Illinois
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I like the updated list. They all can work.
If you are thinking of buying a grafted American elm hybrid for it's disease resistance, and make cuttings from it, elms root easily from cuttings and grow quick. Disease resistant American elms are a worthwhile project. American elms have large leaves, but the leaf size can reduce VERY dramatically, with just a degree or two of branching. American elms are great for medium size and larger bonsai. Plan on 12 to 40 inch height.
For other species, some root easily, some are difficult. Some grow fast, some grow slow. So the answer about buying propagation stock is "it depends".
Propagation is something many of us enjoy doing, but it is not really part of bonsai. Similar with raising trees from seed. If material is common in the hobby, there's no real "need" to put effort into propagation. Focus your energy on learning bonsai and bonsai techniques. I do sprout seed every year, but that is the "nurseryman's phase" of bonsai, the first 5 years of a seedlings life entails very little bonsai technique being used.
Nursery stock will take a few years to get to the "pre-bonsai" phase. Don't get discouraged. Read up on developing trunks and root systems. The flair or buttress, where the trunk widens out is called the nebari, and it includes the surface roots. Ideally the surface roots should be arranged like the spokes of a wheel. While in training, the surface roots need to be buried. Don't expose them too soon. You trim roots, and arrange roots every time you repot, but then bury the nebari, the surface roots at least 0.5 cm or a quarter inch with media. You do not expose the nebari until the tree is near exhibition ready.
Hope that helps.
If you are thinking of buying a grafted American elm hybrid for it's disease resistance, and make cuttings from it, elms root easily from cuttings and grow quick. Disease resistant American elms are a worthwhile project. American elms have large leaves, but the leaf size can reduce VERY dramatically, with just a degree or two of branching. American elms are great for medium size and larger bonsai. Plan on 12 to 40 inch height.
For other species, some root easily, some are difficult. Some grow fast, some grow slow. So the answer about buying propagation stock is "it depends".
Propagation is something many of us enjoy doing, but it is not really part of bonsai. Similar with raising trees from seed. If material is common in the hobby, there's no real "need" to put effort into propagation. Focus your energy on learning bonsai and bonsai techniques. I do sprout seed every year, but that is the "nurseryman's phase" of bonsai, the first 5 years of a seedlings life entails very little bonsai technique being used.
Nursery stock will take a few years to get to the "pre-bonsai" phase. Don't get discouraged. Read up on developing trunks and root systems. The flair or buttress, where the trunk widens out is called the nebari, and it includes the surface roots. Ideally the surface roots should be arranged like the spokes of a wheel. While in training, the surface roots need to be buried. Don't expose them too soon. You trim roots, and arrange roots every time you repot, but then bury the nebari, the surface roots at least 0.5 cm or a quarter inch with media. You do not expose the nebari until the tree is near exhibition ready.
Hope that helps.
Again, great advice.
They say they grow everything from seed (re: the elm), but I will definitely look for a graft to confirm. Here is how they do it.
I am interested in propagation, so I see myself enjoying it right along with you. And if space runs out, I can share cuttings with other NBS members (or I have my wife half talked into a greenhouse). Omaha doesn't have any bonsai-specific nurseries or retailers.
But I have no intention of rushing anything to a bonsai pot, I understand how working on the roots & trunk first can set up success later.
Thank you Leo! One more question and perhaps the most important one... since we share the same hardiness zone... what are your favorite North American Trees to practice on?
They say they grow everything from seed (re: the elm), but I will definitely look for a graft to confirm. Here is how they do it.
I am interested in propagation, so I see myself enjoying it right along with you. And if space runs out, I can share cuttings with other NBS members (or I have my wife half talked into a greenhouse). Omaha doesn't have any bonsai-specific nurseries or retailers.
But I have no intention of rushing anything to a bonsai pot, I understand how working on the roots & trunk first can set up success later.
Thank you Leo! One more question and perhaps the most important one... since we share the same hardiness zone... what are your favorite North American Trees to practice on?
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
That was great to see you (with the help of OL, Original Leo).. um .. “focus” your list.
Also... seasons are long.. tastes have a way of changing whilst flavors are sipped...
You end up liking, and consequently disliking, certain aspects of varying species after you start “going rounds” with said plants...
Keep an open mind while going about defining your “broad-swing favorites”.
Also... seasons are long.. tastes have a way of changing whilst flavors are sipped...
You end up liking, and consequently disliking, certain aspects of varying species after you start “going rounds” with said plants...
Keep an open mind while going about defining your “broad-swing favorites”.
What a poet. I love it.That was great to see you (with the help of OL, Original Leo).. um .. “focus” your list.
Also... seasons are long.. tastes have a way of changing whilst flavors are sipped...
You end up liking, and consequently disliking, certain aspects of varying species after you start “going rounds” with said plants...
Keep an open mind while going about defining your “broad-swing favorites”.
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Nah.. I’m just Bugs Bunny and SpongeBob rolled into the same, funny lil’ cigarette.
(Thank you
)
You are actually a quite delightful and refreshing addition to this dysfunctional family.Nah.. I’m just Bugs Bunny and SpongeBob rolled into the same, funny lil’ cigarette.
(Thank you
parhamr
Omono
Top dressing will definitely help!
It sounds to me like you’re watering too much but I don’t know your climate or weather. Do they wilt or shrivel if you only water once a day, in the morning?
Shogun610
Masterpiece
Say it with me...kinda like Crab People chant from South Park.
Crab Apple , Crab Apple , Crab Apple
Honestly , I’d probably pick everything from that list, and if you can’t get them this year then next year. We need more native species in Bonsai here in US.. just make sure none of them are grafts.
Crab Apple , Crab Apple , Crab Apple
Honestly , I’d probably pick everything from that list, and if you can’t get them this year then next year. We need more native species in Bonsai here in US.. just make sure none of them are grafts.
I've been doing a lot of thinking about this since posting that. I did an evaporation test and took some measurements. I am planning on putting my findings on its own thread eventually. It's really specific to my circumstances though, which I suppose is good. But basically with the drainage I have, it is tough to over water, and the rootmaker pot I'm using leads to faster evaporation, so I will have to water a lot. For non-bonsai nurseries, the recommended substrate for the pot is ground pine bark, peat, and sand 60/20/20. That's much more moisture-retentive than the mix I'm using.
I will buy or make some caps like these to help conserve water. But more importantly I will think more carefully when I pot future trees.
Leo in N E Illinois
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They may generally grow MOST of their trees from seed, but named cultivars simply can not be grown from seed. By definition, a plant grown from seed has its genetics re-combined by the process of seed formation. Just as every human is genetically unique, except in the case of identical twins or identical multiples, if a plant is from seed it is at best only 50% of one parent. There are a limited number of ways to produce identical plants of a named cultivar. Cuttings, grafting and meristematic tissue culture are the 3 commercially viable methods used by nurseries and the tissue culture route is the least common of the 3 methods. Actually tissue culture is being used for 3 or 4 cultivars of Japanese maples.
So if the tree has a name in single quotes, 'pick a name' this indicates a named cultivar = cultivated variety. This means it is a cutting or clone of a single individual from a single seed. Grafting is the cheapest, least labor intensive method used by nurseries. It has a long history of predictable results. So anytime you see a named cultivar you should assume it was propagated by grafting, cutting or tissue culture. You need to look for the graft, and decide if it is grafted whether the graft was well enough done to not be a problem for bonsai. Grafts are not always bad, but for someone new, it is an added difficulty. Having a graft is not an automatic disqualifier for bonsai, but 97% of grafted nursery material has grafts that were done in a sloppy manner, that makes them unacceptable for bonsai use.
