Pinus sylvestris yamadori

[tarjeiselvik]

Hello!

I have been hallowed to dig up this pine, that I feel have potential. It is located in a pocket of soil, in an otherwise rocky area. Do you think it is possible to dig up with enough roots to survive? I have had success with small er trees, but none this size.

 

[tarjeiselvik]

Hello!

I have been hallowed to dig up this pine, that I feel have potential. It is located in a pocket of soil, in an otherwise rocky area. Do you think it is possible to dig up with enough roots to survive? I have had success with small er trees, but none this size.

*allowed of course

 

[dr.tenebris]

Should be possible! Seen it done but bring plenty of water to keep it's roots wet, you'll be digging for a full day for sure! You will need to cut the roots maybe go for a foot away approximately? The tap root is gonna suck, just gotta get under it for a cut... Might need an electric saw for it!

Good luck!!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I don't see the potential, but if you do then do dig around a little and see if you can find feeder roots.
Scratch them with your nails, smell it, and see if they are in fact pine roots and not roots from whatever else is growing there.
In any case it's good training!

If there are roots under the base, go for it!
I'm against watering soil while collecting, because the heavy soil parts can drop off and tear the roots apart. Best to do that once it's packed or if its damp enough; when you pot it up.

 

[Cruiser]

Based on what I see in your photos and what you’ve written…

I agree with Wires in regard to digging around a little to see if there’s fine feeder roots available close to the surface. It’s important to do this before committing to the dig.
Trees growing on large cracked rocks like that send roots deep down into the cracks and crevices, especially larger trees. This is what helps them survive growing there and usually what enables them to get large. A tree growing in only a small rock-enclosed pocket of soil will not get big unless it’s been there a hell of a long time. Even then, “big” is just big for the conditions it’s in. As in what you’d call a “large” bonsai.

If the fine roots are deep down are you prepared to chisel/pick your way in to get them out? Are you prepared mentally and physically to spend hours getting this tree out?

Not trying to discourage you from a good thing, but its important to be realistic about what could happen. I’ve tried to get trees that didn’t want to be got, and it’s turned out bad.

 

[dr.tenebris]

Based on what I see in your photos and what you’ve written…

I agree with Wires in regard to digging around a little to see if there’s fine feeder roots available close to the surface. It’s important to do this before committing to the dig.
Trees growing on large cracked rocks like that send roots deep down into the cracks and crevices, especially larger trees. This is what helps them survive growing there and usually what enables them to get large. A tree growing in only a small rock-enclosed pocket of soil will not get big unless it’s been there a hell of a long time. Even then, “big” is just big for the conditions it’s in. As in what you’d call a “large” bonsai.

If the fine roots are deep down are you prepared to chisel/pick your way in to get them out? Are you prepared mentally and physically to spend hours getting this tree out?

Not trying to discourage you from a good thing, but its important to be realistic about what could happen. I’ve tried to get trees that didn’t want to be got, and it’s turned out bad.

This ^

Looking at the size and health... And that Stony soul, I predict at least a day worth of digging, cutting the roots back and that's before wrapping the roots in a tarp, keeping them wet and transporting it! Not going to be a quick thing

 

[WinstonWolfe]

If you grab near the base, and it wiggles in the pocket, you have a chance.
If not, I wouldn't bother. Its too risky, and probably won't live

 

[tarjeiselvik]

Thank you so much for your reply guys! It sounds like more work than I thought, but I might still be interested to try.

I guess it might be the case for collecting pines - if they grow in an easy to collect environment, they probably arent good material, and if they are good material, they are probably hard to collect?

I don't see the potential, but if you do then do dig around a little

Can I ask you why you don't see potential? Is it because of high top growth, too little taper in trunk, etc? I agree its not as nice as many trees in this forum, but I thought it had lovely aged bark and some movement/interest in it - as opposed to all the other pines where I live, which are straight grown and have two feet long internodes.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I don't see the movements you see but that can be a 100% attributed to the fact that I havent seen the tree in real life.
The tree looks pretty tall to me and it might be difficult to make it smaller. One of my scots pines is like that and I'm breaking my head over whether or not I should remove 90% of the trunk and start over with one branch.

 

[tarjeiselvik]

Aah, I see, seems like a tough choice to cut or not cut on pines! Granted, the pictures are not the best. I think I will try to dig it early spring, and I will update with better pictures

 

[penumbra]

I do see potential in this pine and I think its worth going after. The amount of effort and time is not predictable as it is commensurate with the collectors experience. I was digging native plants from woods a couple blocks from the family home when I was 9 years old with success. By the time I was 13 I was working at a nursery weekend and after school a couple days a week and I worked most of my adult life in either the nursery or landscape business. I may not approach tree digging like many others here, but I don't see it as an issue unless there are unseen obstacle under ground that may make the job anywhere from inconvenient to impossible (a word I seldom use). I like the idea of holding the plant firmly near the base and seeing if there is any movement. I also suggest a little exploratory digging several feet out from the expected size of the root ball to to test the waters (metaphor).
Having said all of this I have to say that I absolutely hate to see a tree life wasted so if you have any doubts, either before or during the extraction, back off and let the tree live. It disturbs me to think of the number of trees that are killed by overzealous, inexperienced or unprepared collectors.
Also please put your location in your profile. You suggest you are going to attempt this early spring which is normally appropriate but may be quite different from me to you. My candles are expanding now.

 

[River's Edge]

I have a similar tree and in my experience I would focus on two aspects.1. is it collectable. rock pockets can be very different. try the wiggle test before deciding. 2. foliage appears missing or dead on one side, and much of the foliage is way out on the end of substantial branches.
Can you chase the foliage back in to the interior or are there enough smaller branches for a design lower down on that trunk?
If the answers are positive to those two questions than it may be worth the fifteen year project to arrive at a decent looking bonsai to begin ramifying!

Here is what I mean, the branching with foliage further out and a process ( long one ) to create back budding or graft for interior foliage. Perhaps a comparison for thought. Pictures are two years apart. The first picture show improved health after collection, second shows after branch selection and basic wiring first time.

 

[BrianBay9]

Thank you so much for your reply guys! It sounds like more work than I thought, but I might still be interested to try.

I guess it might be the case for collecting pines - if they grow in an easy to collect environment, they probably arent good material, and if they are good material, they are probably hard to collect?

Collecting from rock pockets is the easiest collecting - if you choose the right tree. As @riversedge says, rock the trunk and see if the root mass around it moves too. If so you might just have to clip a couple of support roots running into a crevice or two, and pry the whole root ball out. When I've found the right tree in such a circumstance, it never took more than about 15 min to get it out. Survival rate is high.

 

[tarjeiselvik]

First time posting here, so I am amazed and happy for all your advice! Going to move from reddit to this forum for sure.

I will approach this with careful optimism. Yeah, I have to update my info @penumbra . In the meantime, I'm in Norway. We have long winters and short springs, so I would say there is still some time left. Paying attention to all signs of budding ofc. I have dug up pines before with success, but this is a step up in size. I hear your warnings, and will abort if it seems too hard for me.

@River's Edge great to see a nicely developed tree in similar size and shape. You are right, the foliage is only located on one side. Also on the left side there is a dead branch that is hard to see on the photo. I thought it might lend itself towrds a jin or something, even though I am not overly keen on jins. As for future styling, I was thinking of pulling a lot of those far-away branches inwards and downwards, in leveled pads tighter towards the trunk.

@BrianBay9 a case for optimism! Interesting to hear so varied opinions and experiences. I have passed many trees because they were basically growing in rocks, but this one seemed possible because of the rock pocket. I did check for some roots near the surface when I found it last fall, and there seemed to be some, if not from other trees of course.

 

[River's Edge]

As for future styling, I was thinking of pulling a lot of those far-away branches inwards and downwards, in leveled pads tighter towards the trunk.

I should mention that Scots pine are not as easy to bend the larger branches as most pines. From my experience. The theory and approach to shorten branches that are bare is correct. In this case not as easy as some.

 

[Cruiser]

First time posting here, so I am amazed and happy for all your advice! Going to move from reddit to this forum for sure.

I will approach this with careful optimism. Yeah, I have to update my info @penumbra . In the meantime, I'm in Norway. We have long winters and short springs, so I would say there is still some time left. Paying attention to all signs of budding ofc. I have dug up pines before with success, but this is a step up in size. I hear your warnings, and will abort if it seems too hard for me.

@River's Edge great to see a nicely developed tree in similar size and shape. You are right, the foliage is only located on one side. Also on the left side there is a dead branch that is hard to see on the photo. I thought it might lend itself towrds a jin or something, even though I am not overly keen on jins. As for future styling, I was thinking of pulling a lot of those far-away branches inwards and downwards, in leveled pads tighter towards the trunk.

@BrianBay9 a case for optimism! Interesting to hear so varied opinions and experiences. I have passed many trees because they were basically growing in rocks, but this one seemed possible because of the rock pocket. I did check for some roots near the surface when I found it last fall, and there seemed to be some, if not from other trees of course.

Good luck. We’re rooting for you.
Even if it means leaving the tree, this should be a good learning experience.
Looking forward to future updates/photos.