Pinus Pinea for a beginner

[Wulfskaar]

I just purchased an Italian Stone Pine (Pinus Pinea) that I intend to make into a bonsai and need advice.
My vision of this would be to have it morph into a natural-looking, but not extreme, umbrella shape, as seen in nature.

I read that late fall/early winter is a good time to trim and repotting can happen in spring before a growth cycle. Is this correct?

Should I trim heavily or lightly (or not at all) now? I am thinking about removing all branches up past the first crook of the trunk. Also, I'm thinking the branches need to be thinned out a lot.

It's got some crazy-looking roots as well, but I'm sure I would have to wait on dealing with roots until spring.

Am I on the right track with this?

 

[AlainK]

Gert rid of the root that goes around the trunk now, right where it begins. There are enough roots elsewhere.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Gert rid of the root that goes around the trunk now, right where it begins. There are enough roots elsewhere.

Will do.

Is it a matter of looks or will that choke the tree or something?

 

[RJG2]

Will do.

Is it a matter of looks or will that choke the tree or something?

Yes.

 

[RJG2]

Yes.

It's not in any danger of choking now, but given time it would be, best to get rid of it sooner rather than later.

Circling and crossing roots are normally considered aesthetically unappealing.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I'm going to try the same thing, again, when I find one this Christmas. I haven't had any luck in years past, but I'm a sucker for impossible tasks. As this photo shows, I think they have crowns of many, many branches and you would be better served by letting the top branches be bunched up and trim it slightly to a oval top, but I don't know when.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I'm going to try the same thing, again, when I find one this Christmas. I haven't had any luck in years past, but I'm a sucker for impossible tasks. As this photo shows, I think they have crowns of many, many branches and you would be better served by letting the top branches be bunched up and trim it slightly to a oval top, but I don't know when.
View attachment 343820

Nice! And yes, that picture is what I would be working toward, although maybe slightly less severe of an umbrella. It's hard to explain what's in my head, but I'm thinking somewhere between your picture and this one. Not sure if that makes any sense.

So, being late fall/early winter, is right now a good time to trim off branches, especially near the bottom?

 

[AlainK]

matter of looks

A matter of looks first, but if you keep this root, it will fuse into the trunk in an ugly way.

 

[AlainK]

Not sure if that makes any sense.

It does. It's good to have a (mind) picture of the tree you would like to shape. Yes, you can!

 

[Forsoothe!]

Nice! And yes, that picture is what I would be working toward, although maybe slightly less severe of an umbrella. It's hard to explain what's in my head, but I'm thinking somewhere between your picture and this one. Not sure if that makes any sense.

So, being late fall/early winter, is right now a good time to trim off branches, especially near the bottom?

According to a hort site I googled they are pruned in winter.

 

[Wulfskaar]

It does. It's good to have a (mind) picture of the tree you would like to shape. Yes, you can!

Thanks for the encouragement! I'm looking forward to working with this tree.

 

[Rivian]

As you can see that bonsai has juvenile foliage despite its age, due to bonsai treatment. Are there any bonsai of this with mature foliage?

 

[Wulfskaar]

As you can see that bonsai has juvenile foliage despite its age, due to bonsai treatment. Are there any bonsai of this with mature foliage?

Maybe this?

 

[eryk2kartman]

I have some Stone Pine seedlings that im growing and aiming for umbrella/flat canopy.
In my opinion the tree has to be taller than on any of the photos to look good and natural,
I like the last one but trunk should be either taller or canopy reduced.
Photo from Forsoothe! shows it the best, i believe the trunk has easily another 10-15m to the ground,
Its a literati with umbrella canopy

​

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Wulfskaar
You are in California, Japanese Black pine, and a number of easier to train as bonsai pines grow well there, AND are easily available. I would abandon the Pinus pinea and get yourself a JBP, JRP or Pinus radiata. They are all better subjects for bonsai than pinea. JRP is Pinus densiflora, Japanese Red Pine. There's quite a few good pines, that do well in California that are easier to train than pinea.

That said, don't remove lower branches on your stone pine until the trunk is about the diameter you want for your finished tree. Pinus pinea is a problem because of the tendency to produce juvenile foliage after any amount of pruning. The results of having mixed foliage types on a tree is unattractive. You either have to be very careful with pruning to keep all mature foliage, or prune to force all juvenile foliage. The mix of foliage types always looks hodge podge.

 

[Wulfskaar]

@Wulfskaar
You are in California, Japanese Black pine, and a number of easier to train as bonsai pines grow well there, AND are easily available. I would abandon the Pinus pinea and get yourself a JBP, JRP or Pinus radiata. They are all better subjects for bonsai than pinea. JRP is Pinus densiflora, Japanese Red Pine. There's quite a few good pines, that do well in California that are easier to train than pinea.

That said, don't remove lower branches on your stone pine until the trunk is about the diameter you want for your finished tree. Pinus pinea is a problem because of the tendency to produce juvenile foliage after any amount of pruning. The results of having mixed foliage types on a tree is unattractive. You either have to be very careful with pruning to keep all mature foliage, or prune to force all juvenile foliage. The mix of foliage types always looks hodge podge.

I'm definitely not going to abandon it. I'm not planning on entering any contests or shows or anything like that, so I'll just see what happens. This is just for me.

I will consider what you said about the trunk. I feel it's a decent thickness now (why I picked this one), but I will think twice.

Nigel Saunders mentioned you can't really call it a hobby unless you have several trees to work with, so I do plan on having a few more. I definitely have plans to get one of the pines you mentioned as well as something deciduous.

 

[Wulfskaar]

In nature, Pinus Pinea grows to have the umbrella shaped canopy. How does this happen naturally? Does the trunk grow taller, making the branches go up with it, or do the lower branches die off over time? This picture shows the lower branches looking dead.

I would like to have something like this as the end result, but I'd obviously be forcing it while the tree is still in juvenile form.

Here's my plan (subject to change with good advice):
1. Prune off many (maybe 1/3 to 1/2 or so?) branches to get a few that I want to keep forever, while leaving some on the trunk for sacrificial purposes (thicken trunk).
a. How much is too much?
2. Wire some of the upper branches to begin training them to point more upwards.
3. Let it grow.
4. Repot in Spring.
5. Let it grow until winter.
6. Prune again in late fall or early winter.

 

[Forsoothe!]

If you want it to look like the pictured natural umbrella, then you need to let the canopy get crowded. Maybe clean-up the dead twigs from underneath, but leave everything with green foliage and pinch tips to force more backbudding and artificially create the top to your tastes, just like we do with everything. All trees have some length limit on how far the vascular system can draw fluids and that's where the foliage stops. Whether it's 10 feet or 200 feet, each species has a limit.

 

[Forsoothe!]

There are zero in the Detroit area this year so I settled for a Lemon Cypress. We shall see.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I went ahead and trimmed off the lower branches a couple weeks ago. It's already looking way better to me.

The plan now, I think, is to control vertical growth while letting the lower branches grow taller. I'll be experimenting with that. I think right now it's taller than I want it to be, so I will probably do some more trimming off the top.

Would it be better to wait until spring 2022 to repot?.