Pine training (Ryan Neil Lecture)

[Beng]

Just watched Ryan Neils pine lecture at willowbog "great videos" a few of his techniques are slightly different from what i'd learned, so I will try them on my black pines this year to see if it results in even shorter needles.

If you haven't seen the black pine lecture by Ryan it's here.

[video=youtube;Yn1FiRw2JBo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Yn1FiRw2JBo[/video]

Black Pine

1st Year

Early spring pluck down to the weakest significant branch (not minor branch) minimum 10-12 needle pairs.

Fertilize from March to May once every 4-6 weeks balanced organic.

May cut all candles down to approximately 5cm even the very weakest, needle pluck the tree further down to 6-8 needle sets per shoot.

Begin late summer-fall fertilization when the needles are sharp, darker green, and do not fall off when brushed by your hand. 2 application of fertilizers 4-6 weeks apart.

Mid fall shoot selection of 2 buds per shoot. Given priority in this order

• Equal Strength
• Emerging in acute triangular angles.
• Emerging Laterally

• Top of the tree look for shorter needles and shorter internodes choose equal sized pairs.
• Bottom of the tree where growth is weaker if you have 2 strong shoots of equal length great choose those and remove any weak buds. However if there is only one strong shoot and two weak shoots remove the weakest shoots of the two week shoots and leave the stronger of the two. Even if the 2 remaining shoots size is different this will help balance the energy of the tree.

In the fall needle pluck again to 10-12 pairs.

• Never remove all the old needles as it weakens the tree. Remove 2/3-3/4 old and 1/3-1/4 new approx. (New needles photosynthesize) (Old needles release hormonal allocation for each bud)
• Remove needles closest to the trunk first
• Remove crossing needles.
• Remove excessively long needles
• Remove needles in-between buds to create the illusion of 2 fans moving out in acute triangular angles.

2nd Year

Fertilize from March to May once every 4-6 weeks balanced organic.

May cut all candles down to approximately 5cm even the very weakest, needle pluck the tree further down to 6-8 needle sets per shoot.

Begin late summer-fall fertilization when the needles are sharp, darker green, and do not fall off when brushed by your hand. 2 application of fertilizers 4-6 weeks apart.

Mid fall shoot selection of 2 buds per shoot. Given priority in this order

• Equal Strength
• Emerging in acute triangular angles.
• Emerging Laterally

• Top of the tree look for shorter needles and shorter internodes choose equal sized pairs.
• Bottom of the tree where growth is weaker if you have 2 strong shoots of equal length great keep those and remove the weaker buds. However if there is only one strong shoot and two weak shoots remove the weakest shoots of the two week shoots and leave the stronger of the two. Even if the 2 remaining shoots size is different this will help balance the energy of the tree.

In the fall needle pluck again to 10-12 pairs.

• Never remove all the old needles as it weakens the tree. Remove 2/3-3/4 old and 1/3-1/4 new approx. (New needles photosynthesize) (Old needles release hormonal allocation for each bud)
• Remove needles closest to the trunk first
• Remove crossing needles.
• Remove excessively long needles
• Remove needles in-between buds to create the illusion of 2 fans moving out in acute triangular angles.

 

[Beng]

His Single Flush Pine Lecture is here. [video=youtube;-1Y6j2wgI2U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-1Y6j2wgI2U[/video] It's for collected material such as Scots pine, however since most nursery grown material is just a knotted mass of roots we have to redevelop anyway i'd assume this training schedule would work for them as well.

Although i've been working with black pines for years I've never grown single flush pines so perhaps someone else can summarize the second video better then me. I get a little confused with the order

Year 1 you fertilize to develop roots
Year 2 you fertilize to produce foliage
Year 3 you fertilizing to develop backbiting
Year 4 you repot. Then he goes back into 2 methods of refinement one of which is to develop back budding and one to fill out the tree. Does the back budding portion need to be carried out during a fifth year or can you candle cut in the 3rd year to stimulate back buds? I'd imagine trimming the tips of buds to allow interior buds to grow to create a full looking tree can take place in the final stages.

 

[Poink88]

Beng,

Great notes and thanks for sharing!

If you don't mind, I edited your notes to add/incorporate mine. I may be mistaken so (anyone) please feel free to correct me as well.

[video=youtube;Yn1FiRw2JBo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Yn1FiRw2JBo[/video]

Black Pine

Fundamental information:
1. Strength of JBP (and other 2 flush growth pines) come from roots.
2. Strength allocation is dictated by foliage mass. Equal needle mass, equal strength distribution.

Spring time or at time of acquisition (anytime of year) assuming tree is healthy

Early spring pluck needles down to the weakest significant branch (not minor branch) minimum 10-12 needle pairs.

For June decandling, fertilize from March to May (depending on decandling season in your area, work back 12 weeks) every 4-6 weeks balanced organic 2-3 times. (either 2 x 6 weeks or 3 x 4 weeks...both equals 12 weeks).

June (again this varies depending your area) cut all candles down to approximately 5mm even the very weakest, needle pluck the tree further down to 6-8 needle sets per shoot.

Between this time and until the leaves have set...DO NOTHING! DON'T TOUCH!!!

Begin late summer-fall fertilization when the needles are sharp, darker green, and do not fall off when brushed by your hand. 2-3 application of fertilizers 4-6 weeks apart (see fertilizing note above)

NEVER fertilize until the leaves has set, otherwise the decandling purpose is defeated and will generate long leaves and internodes.

Mid fall shoot selection of 2 buds per shoot. Given priority in this order

• Equal Strength
• Emerging in acute triangular angles.
• Emerging Laterally

• Top of the tree look for shorter needles and shorter internodes choose equal sized pairs.
• Bottom of the tree where growth is weaker if you have 2 strong shoots of equal length great choose those and remove any weak buds. However if there is only one strong shoot remove the weakest shoot(s) and leave the strongest two. Even if the 2 remaining shoots size is different this will help balance the energy of the tree.

In the fall needle pluck again to 10-12 pairs.

• Never remove all the old needles as it weakens the tree. Remove 2/3-3/4 old and 1/3-1/4 new approx. (New needles photosynthesize) (Old needles release hormonal allocation for each bud)
• Remove needles closest to the trunk first
• Remove crossing needles.
• Remove excessively long needles
• Remove needles in-between buds to create the illusion of 2 fans moving out in acute triangular angles.

Back to Spring cycle....rinse and repeat

 

[dick benbow]

he's also done red and white pine as well on you-tube. I'd much rather see one of scott's and mugho. the 26th of the month is my 1st study class with him for the year and i'll have to ask him. There are 5 in the class and he usually starts off the first half hr or so with instruction like your videos about specific trees.

I do appreciate the nice outline you created.

 

[Joedes3]

Vance is the expert in this forum on Mugho. Check his posts. The information is tremendous.
Joe De

 

[jkd2572]

And Ryan has just started with Scott's I have heard that you should treat them like black pines. Now I'm confused as hell. I have twice the growing season as he does. Does anyone degree with his suggested method with Scott's? I only have one and its my first year with it. It's also a very nice tree so experimentation is not what I want.

 

[my nellie]

Beng, thank you for your time and interest to summarize the main points.
Your list is the summary of Ryan's lecture's main points, isn't it?

Hi Dario! Long time...

Beng, If you don't mind, I edited your notes to add/incorporate mine. I may be mistaken so (anyone) please feel free to correct me as well... ...

Of course, Beng has asked anyone more experienced to edit the list he has provided but I would like to ask some clarification... Dario, please do not get me wrong! I myself gather as much information as possible and make comparisons among the different or similar ways of handling by various artists.
So, these notes of yours added to those of Ryan's, may I ask they are coming out of your personal experience with the species, aren't they? Or maybe is some kind of info compilation from other artists?

Thank you!

 

[Poink88]

Alexandra,

All the notes I added are from Ryan's lecture and from that same video. BUT as I said, I may have made some mistake or misinterpreted some things (my brain does that sometimes).

 

[my nellie]

Dario, thank you very much!
For me English is a foreign language, therefore it is always better to read than to hear.
So, all these notes are most valuable to me.

 

[jkd2572]

I'm thinking Hans has been doing Scott's a bit longer than Ryan. He says the opposite.
http://www.karamotto.org/?page=21

 

[Harunobu]

Ryan said that for finer foliage/endgame bonsai/shorter needles to prune candles back to about 5 needle pairs in late may.

That article says prune 2/3rd to 3/4rd off the candles in springtime.
Seems to be the same, not the opposite.


Scot's Pine can never be like Black pine because their growth habits are different. Two flush growth vs one flush growth.

 

[jkd2572]

The article says he also completely cuts off the first flush candles. He goes on to show pics of a mungo he did this too. Read it again.

 

[Vance Wood]

I'm thinking Hans has been doing Scott's a bit longer than Ryan. He says the opposite.
http://www.karamotto.org/?page=21

That's a point but that does not necessarily mean it is correct. I have been fighting the battle of summer repotting on Mugo and Scots Pines for many years in the face of those who still believe that JBP cultural techniques are the Bible for two needle pine culture. Now and finally I am starting to find some of the bigger names in modern bonsai starting to do this as well. So the argument that someone has been doing something longer than someone else does not always wash, it only means that some of the traditional wisdom is being called into question. You have to be willing to listen and examine the results for your self.

 

[jkd2572]

I think Hans pics speak for themselves. I'm going into my first summer with my Scott's pine and still trying to figure out if I should treat like my jwp or my jpb. Seems like it would develop much faster using Hans' method of candle cutting.

 

[Vance Wood]

I think Hans pics speak for themselves. I'm going into my first summer with my Scott's pine and still trying to figure out if I should treat like my jwp or my jpb. Seems like it would develop much faster using Hans' method of candle cutting.

You should not treat a Scots Pine like anything but a Scots Pine. Black Pine technique will in some cases be counter productive. Candle cutting, if you mean candle removal is a good technique as long as it is done in Mid-summer.

 

[jkd2572]

I thought you were agreeing with Ryan that you should not remove the candles. Or maybe i misunderstood him. That's what confused me. Thanks for clearing up.

 

[Vance Wood]

I thought you were agreeing with Ryan that you should not remove the candles. Or maybe i misunderstood him. That's what confused me. Thanks for clearing up.

I think if you go back and look at Ryan's lecture you will find that it is mentioned that with Scots Pine you let the tree build up a head of steam and then force it to redirect that energy in producing new buds. The same is true with Mugo Pines.

 

[Harunobu]

The article says he also completely cuts off the first flush candles. He goes on to show pics of a mungo he did this too. Read it again.

I didn't read the article, but you didn't pay attention so I am still correct.

The pictures are all mugo. And he removes the whole 'candle' in June. Then it's not a candle anymore. Ryan said that when you prune 1 flush growth pines you have to make sure first they get more energy out of the new candle that that they put in. So that means letting them develop and extend and do their photosynthesis. Then cut them in late June.

Article says "Tip: On Mugo pines that are in their early stages off development it is a good idea to let the new candles grow a bid longer, this way there will be much energy going through this branches."

Same thing.

For candle pinching it says this:
"With candle pinching we take the first step in balancing the new growth! By pinching the candles in the strong zones in springtime by 2/3 up to 3/4 of their length"

So both say to not remove candles completely. Both say you can cut new growth in June to get backbudding. Both say to candle pinch by keeping quite a few needle pairs around.

What's the difference? I see no one saying where they say the opposite, just that they do.

 

[Vance Wood]

I didn't read the article, but you didn't pay attention so I am still correct.

The pictures are all mugo. And he removes the whole 'candle' in June. Then it's not a candle anymore. Ryan said that when you prune 1 flush growth pines you have to make sure first they get more energy out of the new candle that that they put in. So that means letting them develop and extend and do their photosynthesis. Then cut them in late June.

Article says "Tip: On Mugo pines that are in their early stages off development it is a good idea to let the new candles grow a bid longer, this way there will be much energy going through this branches."

Same thing.

For candle pinching it says this:
"With candle pinching we take the first step in balancing the new growth! By pinching the candles in the strong zones in springtime by 2/3 up to 3/4 of their length"

So both say to not remove candles completely. Both say you can cut new growth in June to get backbudding. Both say to candle pinch by keeping quite a few needle pairs around.

What's the difference? I see no one saying where they say the opposite, just that they do.

Your answer sounds like you are ticked?

 

[Jason_mazzy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7ngvzuN-F4



I enjoy this video because it is the "120mph" version so it is a great way to get a quick reminder of why we do what we do and how to do it.