Opinions on an Amur Maple being auctioned

[wireme]

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That was fun right?

Making no claims of superstardom here but past the point of condescension, and dismissal perhaps?

Still stupid though I have to admit, past one a.m. now!!!

 

[wireme]

I’m not sure how well it will adapt to bonsai culture, but Korean maple or Korean x Japanese maple hybrid should be winter hardy in your zone. I’m currently in the process of air layering one and have noticed that the leaves miniaturize well, so at least that part of bonsai culture works like you would want it to. I started the layer early this spring before it leafed out and the tree responded by putting out smaller leaves above the layer and full size leaves below it.

Sounds very interesting, thanks!

 

[Smoke]

Thank you. That was a lot of fun to see some unbelievable material.

Now the bad part.

You showed me what 20 or 30 pictures of material and not one bonsai in the group. A couple are in pots, but that doesn't make it a bonsai.

You have a unique forum name....WIREME
The whole group of material is screaming your name!!!

I love it that you have responded with this picture filled post of wonderful material but you didn't answer the question. I asked you to define good bonsai

You answered with pictures of material. The material you showed is masterpiece caliber material. The question is what the hell are you waiting for? Turn this into something.

What are YOU going to do?

Show us!

Bonsai is all about doing it, then displaying it. The public gets to decide if you made Awesome bonsai or good bonsai. If doing bonsai by you, and feeling that good is great and you don't care what other people think because you like it, then don't display it here. You will have your heart torn out, maybe not by me, but there are those that will.

There are literally thousands of people that do bonsai all over America and abroad that never show their trees nor belong to internet forums. There are 51 people in the Fresno club and I am the only one that belongs to a public bonsai forum. The others couldn't be bothered. You know what the consensus is of the fifty that don't? The internet is full of wannabe's that do alot of talking and never show any bonsai.

I can truly say that I concur a hundred percent.

I'm going to let out one of those nuggets again. I don't do them very often but if you read it enough times, they make sense when you feel it.

I have often divided the forum into groups. I divide them into pecking orders by economics and working with a teacher. The trees reflect the pecking order of visual impact by that pecking order. Remember these are people that readily post, teach and discuss.

So at the top of my order, based on trees and economics spent to get them I have Walter Pall

In the next level Maros, Sergio and Adair

In the next level I have BVF, Judy

In the next level I have Bobby Lane, MichaelS and myself.

For me, that's it. That's the end of the list for people that actually post bonsai here on a regular basis. Talk about the trees, what they did to them to get them there and teach. People will also notice that the list includes people that actually do the work to make the trees. How many people are on this forum, and I can narrow the field down to 9 people that regularly post trees of bonsai caliber, explain what they do to get there and answer questions when asked. That's pretty pathetic if you ask me.

 

[wireme]

I don't understand your answer. I'll give it a shot though. Maybe your a busy guy. Maybe job is tough, maybe your married and have kids at home. Maybe you spend time outside and your wife is calling you in all the time and says things like, "You spend more time with those trees than you do me".

I don't know.

I don't expect you to change your life to make more expressive or artistic bonsai. Every person has to manage their life time the way they see fit. I get that. I wasn't born retired nor my kids gone by the time the graduated high school. But, they were, and bonsai for me at that point changed dramatically. I had the disposable income now to buy the better trees. I didn't have to grow them painstakingly slow, I could now afford stumps with caliper. Now I had the time to show much more expression with my trees rather than just growing them.


BUT, you knew there was going to be a but. I have been on the forums for 22 of my 36 years in bonsai. There are guys right here on this forum that were there when I came. Guys like BVF, dave4, RockM, Vance Wood and many others that don't post as much anymore. And they came to this one when the others started to go south like, Art of Bonsai, BonsaiTALK, BonsaiPAGE, Internet Bonsai Forum, Gardenweb and Bonsai Study Group, which I find the most hilarious.

It was built with like minded enthusiasts mostly all Boon Followers. Die hard Boon Followers. In fact if you didn't worship Boon you got run off by John Kirby in so many words. I've known Kirby for years and he still treated me like shit. Adair is about the only hold out from that forum that is here. Him and I don't always see eye to eye because he treats this place likes it's still Bonsai Study Group, which is a shame. I say all of this because just talking about trees and everyone agrees is boring and people look for entertainment elsewhere, which is what happened to BSG. They ran off all the normal people and only had people that agreed left, and it's demise. It's still there and I go there once and a while. No one of any knowledge is there anymore, and mostly it gives a few people a place to talk and not get beat up. I see Osoyoung there a lot so he is still active.


So Wireme, why I bring all this up is because if you don't have the time to always do what you want with the trees, when you do have the time on the net, be honest. Tell people to shoot for the moon, and tell them when they have made a bad purchase. Or are thinking about making a bad purchase. Tell them to make the best tree, not just a good tree. I want to make unbelievable trees, I may never succeed but I'm not going to lower my expectation to meet my results. NEVER!

A couple small additions. That Amur of mine I wouldn’t sell it for $150. On the other hand I wouldn’t except anybody to pay that much for it either so value can be a very subjective thing.
The little spruce I used as an example of a personal low end keeper? Because you asked how I define a good tree I better say that I do not consider that a good tree and it quite likely never will be. It’s just something I want to keep working on.

Finally the history lesson was nice but I thought you should know that I was posting my first collected trees on garden web around the time you were showing the pigs, Mat O. Posting maples, Vance fighting the good Mugo fight etc...
I remember the really excellent suiseki content of IBC, the super high end impressive work that was there, the last of the European big names leaving after being called criminals for using collected trees...
I remember ask the master, Dave4 being told he would never get that tree into a pot nicely, you accusing a collector of killing so many trees, ... Sure I haven’t been around like you but I have been called a rookie here by someone with 2years under their belt so I really don’t need you helping to perpetuate that idea.

 

[wireme]

Thank you. That was a lot of fun to see some unbelievable material.

Now the bad part.

You showed me what 20 or 30 pictures of material and not one bonsai in the group. A couple are in pots, but that doesn't make it a bonsai.

You have a unique forum name....WIREME
The whole group of material is screaming your name!!!

I love it that you have responded with this picture filled post of wonderful material but you didn't answer the question. I asked you to define good bonsai

You answered with pictures of material. The material you showed is masterpiece caliber material. The question is what the hell are you waiting for? Turn this into something.

What are YOU going to do?

Show us!

Bonsai is all about doing it, then displaying it. The public gets to decide if you made Awesome bonsai or good bonsai. If doing bonsai by you, and feeling that good is great and you don't care what other people think because you like it, then don't display it here. You will have your heart torn out, maybe not by me, but there are those that will.

There are literally thousands of people that do bonsai all over America and abroad that never show their trees nor belong to internet forums. There are 51 people in the Fresno club and I am the only one that belongs to a public bonsai forum. The others couldn't be bothered. You know what the consensus is of the fifty that don't? The internet is full of wannabe's that do alot of talking and never show any bonsai.

I can truly say that I concur a hundred percent.

I'm going to let out one of those nuggets again. I don't do them very often but if you read it enough times, they make sense when you feel it.

I have often divided the forum into groups. I divide them into pecking orders by economics and working with a teacher. The trees reflect the pecking order of visual impact by that pecking order. Remember these are people that readily post, teach and discuss.

So at the top of my order, based on trees and economics spent to get them I have Walter Pall

In the next level Maros, Sergio and Adair

In the next level I have BVF, Judy

In the next level I have Bobby Lane, MichaelS and myself.

For me, that's it. That's the end of the list for people that actually post bonsai here on a regular basis. Talk about the trees, what they did to them to get them there and teach. People will also notice that the list includes people that actually do the work to make the trees. How many people are on this forum, and I can narrow the field down to 9 people that regularly post trees of bonsai caliber, explain what they do to get there and answer questions when asked. That's pretty pathetic if you ask me.

Fair enough but I think the number is higher than 9 and there are plenty who have shown that It’s obvious they will get there soon enough.

I myself lost everything I’m 2010, a 1 in 100 years weather event while I was away. Has happened to better than me as well, you know that. So everything collected by myself, 2011 or later, mostly later, cold short climate, things take longer, limited time., some of those trees had the first repot last week, some last year, one just collected last season....I could make quite a few trees look much better, right now, today. A couple years ago was mostly waiting on recovery. But just take a look at the last spruce progression above, why would you think it stops there?

Anyhow, you’re right about the entertainment here VS BSG that’s sure and I’m very glad you’ve stuck around the forums. Maybe I’ll try talking to you again next year or something.

 

[wireme]

Fair enough but I think the number is higher than 9 and there are plenty who have shown that It’s obvious they will get there soon enough.

I myself lost everything I’m 2010, a 1 in 100 years weather event while I was away. Has happened to better than me as well, you know that. So everything collected by myself, 2011 or later, mostly later, cold short climate, things take longer, limited time, some of those trees had the first repot, last week, on just collected last year....I could make quite a few trees look much better, right now, today. A couple years ago was mostly waiting on recovery. But just take a look at the last spruce progression above, why would you think it stops there?

Anyhow, you’re right about the entertainment here VS BSG that’s sure and I’m very glad you’ve stuck around the forums. Maybe I’ll try talking to you again next year or something.

 

[Bolero]

WreMe, the sooner you disassociate yourself from the opinionated, egotistical, ill-mannered, obnoxious and self serving AH Smoke the sooner you will be able understand the real meaning of being a Bonsai Gardener....

 

[Smoke]

WreMe, the sooner you disassociate yourself from the opinionated, egotistical, ill-mannered, obnoxious and self serving AH Smoke the sooner you will be able understand the real meaning of being a Bonsai Gardener....

Use the ignore button. Thats what its there for. Problem solved. Unless...you don't want to miss the good stuff and further your gardening education?

 

[Smoke]

Fair enough but I think the number is higher than 9 and there are plenty who have shown that It’s obvious they will get there soon enough.

Name them.

No pictures of the trees prior to 2010?

 

[karen82]

I'm still a bonsai noob but I saw that tree and was tempted by it - though I decided not to get it. But I'm in zone 5 and you're in zone 7. It seems to me that Amurs are usually thought of as somewhat of a poorer substitute for better maples in cold climates. In your climate, you could grow a Japanese or trident maple.
Also, Amurs are illegal to ship to some states because of their potential to be invasive.

 

[wireme]

Name them.

No pictures of the trees prior to 2010?

I would like to I really would but I feel foolish enough getting embroiled in this to begin with and I don’t have the time. Gotta bow out.

Old pics old computer that hasn’t been plugged up m for years. Kinda similar to your starting efforts with a few exceptions that could have been something by now.

I hope you are pleasantly surprised by the contributions of members in the future and yeah I think you’ve overlook quality work, even if it’s not all the way there the steps along the way are worthy of respect as well and I’m not talking about my trees but others.

 

[Bolero]

Hello Karen, Fortunately for me you passed on that Amur Maple of the OP because I bought it...YAHOOOOOOO.....that Amur Maple will be Exhibition quality when I am thru styling it. It is excellent Bonsai quality in need of Minor styling only, I feel really fortunate to have acquired it for such a low price. I understand that it was going to be bid in the $200's if still there Sat. so I got lucky....
I'm in Michigan and have several Amur's, they do well here...they are not a poor substitute for other Maples.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Thank you. That was a lot of fun to see some unbelievable material.

Now the bad part.

You showed me what 20 or 30 pictures of material and not one bonsai in the group. A couple are in pots, but that doesn't make it a bonsai.

You have a unique forum name....WIREME
The whole group of material is screaming your name!!!

I love it that you have responded with this picture filled post of wonderful material but you didn't answer the question. I asked you to define good bonsai

You answered with pictures of material. The material you showed is masterpiece caliber material. The question is what the hell are you waiting for? Turn this into something.

What are YOU going to do?

Show us!

Bonsai is all about doing it, then displaying it. The public gets to decide if you made Awesome bonsai or good bonsai. If doing bonsai by you, and feeling that good is great and you don't care what other people think because you like it, then don't display it here. You will have your heart torn out, maybe not by me, but there are those that will.

There are literally thousands of people that do bonsai all over America and abroad that never show their trees nor belong to internet forums. There are 51 people in the Fresno club and I am the only one that belongs to a public bonsai forum. The others couldn't be bothered. You know what the consensus is of the fifty that don't? The internet is full of wannabe's that do alot of talking and never show any bonsai.

I can truly say that I concur a hundred percent.

I'm going to let out one of those nuggets again. I don't do them very often but if you read it enough times, they make sense when you feel it.

I have often divided the forum into groups. I divide them into pecking orders by economics and working with a teacher. The trees reflect the pecking order of visual impact by that pecking order. Remember these are people that readily post, teach and discuss.

So at the top of my order, based on trees and economics spent to get them I have Walter Pall

In the next level Maros, Sergio and Adair

In the next level I have BVF, Judy

In the next level I have Bobby Lane, MichaelS and myself.

For me, that's it. That's the end of the list for people that actually post bonsai here on a regular basis. Talk about the trees, what they did to them to get them there and teach. People will also notice that the list includes people that actually do the work to make the trees. How many people are on this forum, and I can narrow the field down to 9 people that regularly post trees of bonsai caliber, explain what they do to get there and answer questions when asked. That's pretty pathetic if you ask me.

Pretty good list. I'd include @markyscott not because he's a Texan, but has a lot of good bonsai threads. I think the best instructional ones on the forum.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Don't let world class bonsai die with those who chose to push for progression of the art because you have soft skin... All my plants are seedlings around 1 year and less so I don't have much to show but I'm 25 and only been studying bonsai 2 or so years. I'd rather learn why some species aren't suitable or why some material is crap early on than defend native or invasive garbage I chose to mess with so I can progress and have something appealing to more than just me. So many here ask for constructive criticism then feel attacked if someone disagrees with them. If your child finger paints something sure you'll hang it on the fridge but that doesn't make it art gallery worthy... Same with a tree you grew from seed, collected, saved whatever, it may be special to you but compared to quality art it's firewood/toilet paper.

 

[Smoke]

I would like to I really would but I feel foolish enough getting embroiled in this to begin with and I don’t have the time. Gotta bow out.

Old pics old computer that hasn’t been plugged up m for years. Kinda similar to your starting efforts with a few exceptions that could have been something by now.

I hope you are pleasantly surprised by the contributions of members in the future and yeah I think you’ve overlook quality work, even if it’s not all the way there the steps along the way are worthy of respect as well and I’m not talking about my trees but others.

I respect that. Not a lot of people have the moxy I do. I don't have a problem getting in there and naming names. No reason to dance around the truth, but I respect your decision to not to. You gotta have peace within your self.

You know the bonsai forum 15 years ago did not exist in the same way it does now. people that are vocal and belligerent used to be in the background and just read and absorbed. But much like the political climate we seem to be in now, the watchers from the edge now want their voice heard, at any cost, and are not afraid to call out someone with more experience and 20+ years of stuff on forums all around the net.

Just take a look at NUT on any given day and see what you get when you open the site.

Help me pick out this tree?

Is this dead?

How much is this worth?

Is this auction tree worth it?

Is this fungus?

How do you deal with fungus?

Whats this on my leaves?

or my favorites, the long titles

"I just bought this tree and I hope someone out there can help me style it with out spending a fortune on pots tools or soil, cause I'm cheap!"

I long for the good ole days in bonsai when people focused on getting better and were hungry to learn.

 

[Smoke]

Pretty good list. I'd include @markyscott not because he's a Texan, but has a lot of good bonsai threads. I think the best instructional ones on the forum.

Great. That was my list, the way I see it.

I think you should make a list. I think it's important to see how people feel about their fellow man. Some may feel it's stupid and unnecessary, and maybe it is. Thats why this is a discussion forum, if you don't like it, don't participate. But, also don't come in and start name calling cause someone posted something you don't agree with. If you wish to ask a question, fine.

I ask questions and get accused of trolling....WTF. I can't help it if they are hard and not easy to answer questions, and make you look at yourself objectively.

 

[VAFisher]

I would include @markyscott, @Dav4, @Vance Wood and would have definitely included johng but he seems to have left. I would also include @Zach Smith as someone to pay attention to. He doesn't post a lot of trees here because he has his own blog - but I like his style. I would love to have a beer with @LanceMac10 and talk shop

Anyway, there are some of us around here that don't get involved in all of the bull shit but just quietly work on our trees and post pics. Most of the time our posts are lost in the shuffle because it's more exciting and interesting to act like an ass.

 

[wireme]

Don't let world class bonsai die with those who chose to push for progression of the art because you have soft skin... All my plants are seedlings around 1 year and less so I don't have much to show but I'm 25 and only been studying bonsai 2 or so years. I'd rather learn why some species aren't suitable or why some material is crap early on than defend native or invasive garbage I chose to mess with so I can progress and have something appealing to more than just me. So many here ask for constructive criticism then feel attacked if someone disagrees with them. If your child finger paints something sure you'll hang it on the fridge but that doesn't make it art gallery worthy... Same with a tree you grew from seed, collected, saved whatever, it may be special to you but compared to quality art it's firewood/toilet paper.

I’m curious, what was your opinion of the tree at first view and after having read the thread?

 

[Smoke]

Most of the time our posts are lost in the shuffle because it's more exciting and interesting to act like an ass.

Bravo, you get it. That, is exactly what keeps this forum alive. Boring, and it turns to BSG. Thanks, I'll take the compliment in single handedly keeping this place alive.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

I’m curious, what was your opinion of the tree at first view and after having read the thread?

Honestly I think I'd rather start from seed than spend money on that. The high ugly root, the dead part of the trunk. It looks like someone tried to rush a tree into a bonsai, failed then tried to sell it. Reading the thread was just for intertainment and had no influence on my opinion.