Old Gold Juniper x (hack job)

[DirtyZ]

New to bonsai and first time styling a tree. Just trimmed this up last night and going to wire it today. Thought I’d share it here. Took a lot off. Not quite sure on the “front” …had kind of a baseball glove shape to it initially. Thinking first pic for front. Seems need to move a few branches front/back to create more depth and 3D

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

That is some drastic work my man.
Old golds are tough but you're pushing their limits by stripping the bark and the foliage in one go. It might not survive.
We all have done this, we've all been through this. Don't worry about it too much and keep going.

The issue with stripped bark in this stage is that the wood will dry up and it will be difficult to wire; the dry wood will simply snap. Next time, save that for after the trunks are set.

Keep it alive, that should be the main concern. And allow it to recover if it lives. It is recovered when it stops making needle foliage. Which it will for a year or two because of the work done. At that moment, it's time to think about the front.

Keep us updated please! I would like to see how it behaves after such agressive work. It would be interesting to document for the people in a similsr situation.
Again, if it doesn't survive, this forum is full of people with the same experience.

 

[e~b]

That is some drastic work my man.
Old golds are tough but you're pushing their limits by stripping the bark and the foliage in one go. It might not survive.
We all have done this, we've all been through this. Don't worry about it too much and keep going.

The issue with stripped bark in this stage is that the wood will dry up and it will be difficult to wire; the dry wood will simply snap. Next time, save that for after the trunks are set.

Keep it alive, that should be the main concern. And allow it to recover if it lives. It is recovered when it stops making needle foliage. Which it will for a year or two because of the work done. At that moment, it's time to think about the front.

Keep us updated please! I would like to see how it behaves after such agressive work. It would be interesting to document for the people in a similsr situation.
Again, if it doesn't survive, this forum is full of people with the same experience.

I did very aggressive work on a nursery juniper (some sort of chinesis variety) in june last year. Very similar to this. It somehow survived, and has actually produced a lot of new growth, but like you said, it has all been juvenile.

Im curious, would you hold off on a repot until it returns to mature scales first? My tree is still in nursery soil and I was hoping to repot soon here, but you have me rethinking... perhaps just a more conservative repot?

 

[pandacular]

I like that you're getting after it! My main feedback, in addition to that already provided, is that in the future you will want to ensure you have foliage coming out from different heights on the tree. Remember that the leaves of today are branches of tomorrow. In this case, you scarcely have any branches below the very top of the tree.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Im curious, would you hold off on a repot until it returns to mature scales first?

Yes. As long as it's producing juvenile foliage it's experiencing some kind of stress that it's responding to. That stress can be in the past, but if the response is still there it means that the plant hasn't gotten back to a homeostatic equilibrium. That's a fancy way of saying "It's not back to normal yet". If you ever want to impress a biologist, use that phrase whenever something is out of the ordinary.
In theory, you can repot whenever. But if you want to be efficient about your time, keep in mind that a weak repot can set your development back by a couple years. In that time you just water the plant, keep it recovering, and in all that time you as a practitioner learn very little about it. A strong plant being repotted should bounce back within the same year. Sometimes people are lucky, but I prefer beginners to go hard on the bending and soft on the repotting. A broken branch can heal, a dead plant can not. Junipers especially can produce a whole bunch of roots from their trunks and leaving them in organic soils should not be an issue if you monitor the watering closely. As a matter of fact, we see from people like Eric Schrader (bonsaify on youtube) that 40-60% organics like coco coir, can yield huge amounts of growth. My own junipers did better in low-pH-black-peat than they ever did in bonsai soil.
I'm trying to advocate a more precise description of the roots' status. "Pot bound" should mean the plant is pushing itself out of the pot because there is absolutely zero other space for the roots and it should inhibit top growth. If that's not the case, it's just a healthy root system. A healthy root system doesn't require a repot. Some circling roots are not an issue. Water a little less for a week in the summer and they prune themselves.

 

[e~b]

Yes. As long as it's producing juvenile foliage it's experiencing some kind of stress that it's responding to. That stress can be in the past, but if the response is still there it means that the plant hasn't gotten back to a homeostatic equilibrium. That's a fancy way of saying "It's not back to normal yet". If you ever want to impress a biologist, use that phrase whenever something is out of the ordinary.
In theory, you can repot whenever. But if you want to be efficient about your time, keep in mind that a weak repot can set your development back by a couple years. In that time you just water the plant, keep it recovering, and in all that time you as a practitioner learn very little about it. A strong plant being repotted should bounce back within the same year. Sometimes people are lucky, but I prefer beginners to go hard on the bending and soft on the repotting. A broken branch can heal, a dead plant can not. Junipers especially can produce a whole bunch of roots from their trunks and leaving them in organic soils should not be an issue if you monitor the watering closely. As a matter of fact, we see from people like Eric Schrader (bonsaify on youtube) that 40-60% organics like coco coir, can yield huge amounts of growth. My own junipers did better in low-pH-black-peat than they ever did in bonsai soil.
I'm trying to advocate a more precise description of the roots' status. "Pot bound" should mean the plant is pushing itself out of the pot because there is absolutely zero other space for the roots and it should inhibit top growth. If that's not the case, it's just a healthy root system. A healthy root system doesn't require a repot. Some circling roots are not an issue. Water a little less for a week in the summer and they prune themselves.

Nice. Interesting note about the black peat. I'll hold off then until the mature foliage has returned - still room for roots in the pot, they are just circling from years of slip pots (or at least i think that is why)

 

[DirtyZ]

Makes sense @pandacular, I can see how those tiny branches lower down might have helped in the future. Thank you.

Thanks for the words @Wires_Guy_wires. I think the day after I posted this I decided to wire it a bit (hadn’t yet seen your comment about not working it more). It put out a little bit of the juvenile needle foliage but not much else. I put it in a separate deeper pot with a layer of large lava rocks at the bottom to try and drain it better. Also put some sphagnum moss on top, mostly because the fine roots were disturbed when I went looking for nebari so thought I’d cover them up to maybe help the plant…though I do realize it’s also going to hold moisture into the nursery soil which may not be ideal either.

I read somewhere that using a grow tent might help crispy leaves so i made a plastic covering to try and keep it humid. I might also stick it in the greenhouse out of the direct sun. Although I’m starting to think it might already be toast.

 

[Kodama]

Thank you for sharing your work on this. Following this thread. I too am interested in how this will recover. I like the bold moves but I have learned from this forum that another thing to consider with Junipers is they get most of thier strength from foliage. So, from nursery stock, I have read it was best to repot first, let it recover, then style. They say the more foliage helps the roots recover faster which is why they say to do in that order. Also I've read that Juniper roots correlate to specific branches. Cut too much of the wrong root and the branch could die because of the live veins feeding it. Hope this survives but recovery might take longer. Just be patient

 

[pandacular]

So, from nursery stock, I have read it was best to repot first, let it recover, then style. They say the more foliage helps the roots recover faster which is why they say to do in that order.

I’ve tried both in a few batches, and with this young of stock, I haven’t noticed a significant difference. The reasoning is true, but more roots also benefits in more top growth (yes, I know what Ryan says about juniper strength in the foliage, but I don’t know that that is nearly as applicable to very young plants)

If anything, styling let’s you decide if it’s even worth repotting in some cases!