Not Liking Certain Features of Trees in Nature

[penumbra]

this is a defensive gobbled-gook argument. I have seen some REALLY ugly trees get peoples' choice awards at shows.

Like I've said before, all it takes is a lot of trunks--forests are big with the public because they've never seen one before, or trees with some kitsch tacked onto it, like a miniature treehouse, a miniature swing hung from a branch, a plastic bear menacing from the aforementioned forest, a car crashed into a single tree--there was a guy online a decade ago that actually made money selling tree/car accident "bonsai" compositions.

FWIW, this is the ultimate people's choice award. Note that the bonsai in it adheres to many bonsai "rules," but also manages to KNOWLEGEABLY break a few too.

Bag End Bonsai Trayscape - Bonsai Empire

A large hill (The Hill) lay to the north, and under its southern slopes Bilbo's father Bungo built the luxurious smial Bag End above the lane of Bagshot Row. Th...

www.bonsaiempire.com

Wow! Its like looking at a train wreck ... you can't look away. Nor can you unsee it.

 

[coh]

I've said it before but it seems worth repeating - in my experience, the people's choice award often goes to whoever brings the most friends and/or family to the show. So what does that make it worth? Hmmm...

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I've said it before but it seems worth repeating - in my experience, the people's choice award often goes to whoever brings the most friends and/or family to the show. So what does that make it worth? Hmmm...

I wont be winning that award any time soon.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Since the Alabama Bonsai Society starting judging its show in 2015, I have had 2 trees win best in show, and 1 tree win the detestable “People’s Choice” award. Of the three, can you tell which was the “People’s Choice”?



Pretty flowers = automatic winner.

The only consolation is that of the 3, the People’s Choice winner was the only tree I had done truly no work on, except to slip-pot it into the current pot. Making the award truly meaningless as it relates to my skill and ability. The Best in Show trees were worked extensively by me for years before they won; in fact I collected the pyracantha and grew it from a pair of stumps.

In shows (or here for that matter), it doesn’t matter much what the ignorant public thinks of my trees, It actually means something when they’re judged by people who understand what they’re looking at.

 

[wireme]

That is a loaded assumption. On a technical level, perhaps a good guitarist requires the same capabilities, but you cant take Doc Watson and expect him to be able to compose something in line with Ripping Corpse or Dissection. Its a totally different attitude. It goes both ways as well. I could never see Chuck Schuldiner or Terrance Hobbs composing something like Roy Buchanan.

Both could likely play each others music but would it sound right? Would the attitude be correct? I doubt it. Hell, even within the same band people playing the same songs are criticized... Iron Maiden's new material is a far cry from their 80's heyday and the band is almost entirely the same, other than Janick Gers. They dont even get the same impact out of classic songs now.

Yeah really? Damn. I’m off to go see Maiden in a couple weeks in Calgary. It should be cool regardless. Funny thing is the last time I went to see a big band was also Iron Maiden. Powerslave tour I think, it’s been a while.

 

[Adair M]

I won People’s Choice with this tree at the Carolina Expo bonsai show several years ago.



That was the year John Geangel didn’t try for it! Lol!!! He normally wins it with putting an alligator or outhouse or treehouse. John is the exception to the rule about People’s Choice in that his trees are actually good, but he finds a way to attract the kids votes!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I won People’s Choice with this tree at the Carolina Expo bonsai show several years ago.

View attachment 255544

That was the year John Geangel didn’t try for it! Lol!!! He normally wins it with putting an alligator or outhouse or treehouse. John is the exception to the rule about People’s Choice in that his trees are actually good, but he finds a way to attract the kids votes!

Pretty flowers.

 

[Matt H.]

I think it comes down to this - do you make bonsais to please others and win awards or do you do it to please yourself? If the latter then do whatever pleases you.

Lately it seems to me that there is a mind set that every bonsai should look to have led a tortured life and have a lot of deadwood. That is one aesthetic and I have trees like that. But I also have peaceful, serene trees that I would not dream of making deadwood on. Each tree is different and each persons taste is different.

Now if you want to win awards that is another story!

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Yeah really? Damn. I’m off to go see Maiden in a couple weeks in Calgary. It should be cool regardless. Funny thing is the last time I went to see a big band was also Iron Maiden. Powerslave tour I think, it’s been a while.

Dont get me wrong, they put on an amazing show still. I just saw them last weekend and it was probably the second best time Ive seen them other than 2003 with Dio and Motorhead. I havent stopped listening through their discography since last friday night. Youll have an incredible time for sure. Great setlist as well. But speaking towards the quality of their recent studio albums... there is no comparison between their creativity now vs then.

 

[wireme]

Dont get me wrong, they put on an amazing show still. I just saw them last weekend and it was probably the second best time Ive seen them other than 2003 with Dio and Motorhead. I havent stopped listening through their discography since last friday night. Youll have an incredible time for sure. Great setlist as well. But speaking towards the quality of their recent studio albums... there is no comparison between their creativity now vs then.

Seventh son is the last album I’m familiar with. Since then I know they’ve kept putting out music but I’ve never heard any of it! Strange really. I’ve been curious about their newer stuff but without seeking it out it’s pretty off the radar I guess.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I think it comes down to this - do you make bonsais to please others and win awards or do you do it to please yourself?

There is no reason it has to be one or the other. That’s the false narrative that some are trying to sell here. It’s nonsense.

 

[bonsaichile]

There is no reason it has to be one or the other. That’s the false narrative that some are trying to sell here. It’s nonsense.

it is the false narrative put forth by the "rules don't apply to me" crowd. It helps them rationalize why their trees dont amount to much: "But I like it. I do it for myself, not for anyone else"

 

[Adair M]

There is no reason it has to be one or the other. That’s the false narrative that some are trying to sell here. It’s nonsense.

I agree 100%. I do bonsai to make the best bonsai I can make.

I don’t particularly care for tropicals, so I don’t make them. So, in that sense, I make bonsai that please me. Non-tropicals! Lol!!!

When I first discovered bonsai, and did a bit of research (WAY before the Internet!!) I found pictures of great Japanese White Pines. And I suppose that influence has kept with me all these years.

I found that JWP were difficult to obtain, but JBP were more abundant, grew faster, and were less expensive. You just had to learn how to manage the needles. And, I did. I found I had a knack for them, so I concentrated my efforts on them.

So, once again, I work on the kinds of trees that please me. Lots of people have tried to push me towards deciduous trees, azaleas, boxwood, etc. And, I have a few. But my heart belongs to the pines. So, I do what I like.

 

[coh]

There is no reason it has to be one or the other. That’s the false narrative that some are trying to sell here. It’s nonsense.

True - there is no reason it has to be one or the other. But, it can be one or the other. Nothing wrong with a tree that breaks all the bonsai rules if it pleases you! Even if everyone else thinks it looks stupid or ugly.

Lots of people "follow the rules" and still never produce anything worth looking at.

 

[Matt H.]

There is no reason it has to be one or the other. That’s the false narrative that some are trying to sell here. It’s nonsense.

I am not saying it has to be one or the other. It's just about the priority. Can be one, the other, or both. And for what it's worth I am more often in the "follow the rules" camp than not. Depends on the tree for me.

I can confidently say that there are just as many boring trees that play by the rules as there are unattractive ones that don't.

I do think one needs to know "the rules" and traditions of what makes a "good" bonsai before deciding to paint outside the lines.

 

[rockm]

Since the Alabama Bonsai Society starting judging its show in 2015, I have had 2 trees win best in show, and 1 tree win the detestable “People’s Choice” award. Of the three, can you tell which was the “People’s Choice”?

View attachment 255522View attachment 255523View attachment 255524

Pretty flowers = automatic winner.

The only consolation is that of the 3, the People’s Choice winner was the only tree I had done truly no work on, except to slip-pot it into the current pot. Making the award truly meaningless as it relates to my skill and ability. The Best in Show trees were worked extensively by me for years before they won; in fact I collected the pyracantha and grew it from a pair of stumps.

In shows (or here for that matter), it doesn’t matter much what the ignorant public thinks of my trees, It actually means something when they’re judged by people who understand what they’re looking at.

Pretty flowers are also a "sell" for the general public. It has kept sellers of mostly crummy, hard to keep serissa bonsai in business for years ;-) Put a kids swing on one of those and you're Golden for a plastic trophy. This sounds snobbish, but believe me, it's not really. After having seen the running themes of what wins Peoples Choice awards at shows over the years, you can generally make a 95 percent accurate guess on which trees will be awarded that prize the minute it is put on a table...

 

[choppychoppy]

Look at the numbers of the 100m freestyle from 1960 to today. Everybody is doing swimming, swinging their arms and kicking their legs using the same muscles. but there is no mediocrity because the social normativity (the culture of swimming) is conducive to hypertrophy and fitness at the various levels. it is not a question of one swimmer being faster than another, it is a question of improvement over time through the accumulation of collective learning. moreover, the 'ideals' of swimming (like the ideals of bonsai) will always and repeatedly develop in the same direction given the constraints of the environment, material, and matter at hand. you can't be a good swimmer by flapping your arms like a bird.

I have competed at Olympic Trials, NCAA championships, am an SEC team champion and an SEC individual champion. I swam for 20 yrs. and with one of the top div 1 college programs. My father was also a coach on 3 national championship teams. Your swimming comparison hurts my brain it sucks so bad.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

I have competed at Olympic Trials, NCAA championships, am an SEC team champion and an SEC individual champion. I swam for 20 yrs. and with one of the top div 1 college programs. My father was also a coach on 3 national championship teams. Your swimming comparison hurts my brain it sucks so bad.

i'm not going to get into this anymore than I already have. This has led to 7 ongoing private conversations with people who are genuinely interested in the topic.

as an aside, you haven't really responded to what i've said, other than saying claiming that you're in a position to know more than me.

this was, of course, a forced analogy, not a literal one-to-one fit

if you're interested, PM me. this is not my opinion, it's basic principle of biology and perception. if you don't like the way i am explaining it, i'll send you a bibliography and you can read it from people who have spent half a century researching it