Michigan Tree Murderer
Masterpiece
Outside.
Most are in the backyard because they get more sun. Maples stay in the front for shade in the afternoon. Now I just need some nice trees.
New USDA plant hardiness map released
- Thread starter RJG2
- Start date
Most are in the backyard because they get more sun. Maples stay in the front for shade in the afternoon. Now I just need some nice trees.
Mikecheck123
Omono
Dude, it’s just mathematics. There’s no human viewpoint involved here at all.
Mikecheck123
Omono
Syracuse was 5a twenty years ago. 5b ten years ago.
Now it's 6a, which tracks with its plummeting snow fall totals.
In 2004, they got 250 inches of snow. Last year, just 70.
Now it's 6a, which tracks with its plummeting snow fall totals.
In 2004, they got 250 inches of snow. Last year, just 70.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
I'll say this...I didn't put much weight in the last classification when I practically lost my Ryusen in the landscape.
Aside from bonsai. I worked my own landscape 30+ years. And anyone new coming into understanding planting in their area. Uses the map as a general guideline. Will find a hard learning curve. That...is what frustrates me. I just wish all to succeed. I know what failure feels like. Early on I dealt with Black Walnut in the yard. Losing things to juglone. I wish that on no one. failure without understanding...is a hard pill to swallow.
That decimated tree...says zone 4. My local landscape nursery and I both agree. Raise me now to a zone 6...
That decimated tree...was a memorial planting. Clearly I no longer can grow Ryusen in my landscape. As we tried the following year with again another loss. Even by adding additional winter protection.
BITTERSWEET...That decimated tree. I'm just grateful for a hobby...though so wet behind the ears at the time. But long enough to permit me to make some dang sweet lemonade .
* I don't give a rats @ss about claiming this is political nonsense or what have you. It's a stumbling block to any new person trying to gain an understanding of what will grow in their landscape.
Aside from bonsai. I worked my own landscape 30+ years. And anyone new coming into understanding planting in their area. Uses the map as a general guideline. Will find a hard learning curve. That...is what frustrates me. I just wish all to succeed. I know what failure feels like. Early on I dealt with Black Walnut in the yard. Losing things to juglone. I wish that on no one. failure without understanding...is a hard pill to swallow.
That decimated tree...says zone 4. My local landscape nursery and I both agree. Raise me now to a zone 6...
That decimated tree...was a memorial planting. Clearly I no longer can grow Ryusen in my landscape. As we tried the following year with again another loss. Even by adding additional winter protection.
BITTERSWEET...That decimated tree. I'm just grateful for a hobby...though so wet behind the ears at the time. But long enough to permit me to make some dang sweet lemonade .
* I don't give a rats @ss about claiming this is political nonsense or what have you. It's a stumbling block to any new person trying to gain an understanding of what will grow in their landscape.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
* Also note...I didn't blame the map back when I lost my tree. As clearly varying factors apply. But to be placed so far out of my zone now. I do struggle with with it.
No amount of explanation will settle my gerbil on this topic. As clearly I'm quite stubborn.
No amount of explanation will settle my gerbil on this topic. As clearly I'm quite stubborn.
jradics
Mame
I remember in the 80s and 90s when certain sects in the gov't were pushing global warming. A writer got into his car to actually visit as many USGS official weather stations as possible. He found many in huge asphalt parking lots, near jetways in airports, etc. I've just learned to take all data sets with a grain of salt. Many studies start out with a conclusion and search for data to prove it. As far as how the new zone parameters will affect MY gardening practices, they dont.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
You do you...
Hartinez
Masterpiece
I’m still Zone whatever my weather station at my house reads. I blame the dayum guberment.
Gabler
Masterpiece
That couldn't be farther from the truth. These aren't pure numbers. These are measurements subjected to statistical analysis. At every point in the scientific process of gathering and analyzing data, researchers have decisions to make in how they will gather and interperet the data.
Relatedly, there's growing concerns in academia that the majority of findings published in peer reviewed journals are false. Having worked as an editor for a journal, I absolutely believe that.
Why Most Published Research Findings Are False - PMC
There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false. The probability that a research claim is true may depend on study power and bias, the number of other studies on the same question, and, importantly, the ratio of ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
Every piece of data contains bias from many sources. Unfortunately, instead of finding ways to filter out the bias, some "researchers" looks for ways to get the bias to lean in their favor. That is why there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.That couldn't be farther from the truth. These aren't pure numbers. These are measurements subjected to statistical analysis. At every point in the scientific process of gathering and analyzing data, researchers have decisions to make in how they will gather and interperet the data.
Relatedly, there's growing concerns in academia that the majority of findings published in peer reviewed journals are false. Having worked as an editor for a journal, I absolutely believe that.
Why Most Published Research Findings Are False - PMC
There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false. The probability that a research claim is true may depend on study power and bias, the number of other studies on the same question, and, importantly, the ratio of ...
That said, most of us have our own blinders as well. Sometimes, even with the best of intention, we fail to see things that we should until it hits us in the face and breaks our nose.
Gabler
Masterpiece
That's why we have cognitive behavioral therapy. I think it was Ben Franklin who said that that the two hardest things are diamonds and to know yourself.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
worth reading:
Also worth reading:
today.oregonstate.edu
Also worth looking into for the location of the weather station nearest you
www.visualcrossing.com
Also FWIW, the data used for the PRISM model used in the new map is sourced through NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's (NOAA) Physical Sciences Division. NOAA, which runs the National Weather Service, is something of a data broker, it buys data from commercial satellite operators as well as makes its data available for free to suppliers who then use it to develop commercial services.
Also worth reading:
New plant hardiness map, used by gardeners nationwide and based on OSU climate data, unveiled
CORVALLIS, Ore. – The U.S. Department of Agriculture today released its new Plant Hardiness Zone Map, the national standard by which gardeners can determine which plants are most likely to survive the coldest winter temperatures at a certain location. The USDA describes the latest map, jointly...
Also worth looking into for the location of the weather station nearest you
How do I find my nearest weather station? – Visual Crossing Weather
Visit https://www.visualcrossing.com/weather-historyEnter your location and any date rangeScroll down to the
www.visualcrossing.com
Also FWIW, the data used for the PRISM model used in the new map is sourced through NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's (NOAA) Physical Sciences Division. NOAA, which runs the National Weather Service, is something of a data broker, it buys data from commercial satellite operators as well as makes its data available for free to suppliers who then use it to develop commercial services.
For everyone who likes a choice on old zone:
https://ferrymorse.com/blogs/ferry-morse-home-gardening-blog/how-do-i-find-my-grow-zone
https://ferrymorse.com/blogs/ferry-morse-home-gardening-blog/how-do-i-find-my-grow-zone
Glaucus
Omono
You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop letting other people trick you.
Relatedly, there's growing concerns in academia that the majority of findings published in peer reviewed journals are false. Having worked as an editor for a journal, I absolutely believe that.
Why Most Published Research Findings Are False - PMC
There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false. The probability that a research claim is true may depend on study power and bias, the number of other studies on the same question, and, importantly, the ratio of ...
If you actually worked as an editor for a journal of any significance, and if you weren't being dishonest, you'd not put this statement out here inside this convo.
You are being disingenuous as best. What you cite is a problem in academia, and actually a specific section of science and with a bunch of caveats, for a reason you arent even explaining. And it has absolutely no place in a discussion where people express science and climate change skepticism.
You are just deliberately throwing oil on the fire. You are one of those people taking advantage of jradics's gullibility. Or you just pull things out of your ass altogether.
Maybe, before you post that essay, it is not a scientifically peer-reviewed paper, you should actually read what it says. Then read what others have said about it in response. Because I suspect you haven't even looked at the essay in question, just the title.
And then have a long hard think about it, before you'd actually fling it out as a piece of meat for some other science-skeptical posters here to devourer.
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Gabler
Masterpiece
I agree with most of what you're saying, so I'm not sure I understand what you're angry about. I was specifically replying to a comment that a statistical analysis is purely mathematics, which it isn't. It involves judgments on the part of the researchers.
I also wouldn't call @jradics gullible. If anything, I would call that skepticism with regard to the prevailing narrative. I have no idea if he's correct, but that's not a statement of gullibility.
shohin_branches
Chumono
In the Milwaukee club the guys far West of the city have such a hard time with fall and by the lake I don't have the temperature fluctuation dance of shelter, benches, shelter but last two years we go from 60's directly to snow or frozen temps so I have to deal with cutting a lot of my leaves off my trees.5a to 5b, still kind of jealous of that Milwaukee to Chicago metropolitan micro-climate though
Glaucus
Omono
It is just the same-old stuff. Someone is being helpful by posting the USDA hardiness map. And 3 pages in, snowflakes are already complaining about how they are going to refuse to change how they handle their trees. Then on page 4, there's anecdotes about how 'sects within the federal government were pushing climate change in the 80's' when in fact at that point the oil industry itself knew that climate change was happening because their own scientists that they hired to investigate it, told them so. That said, the theory of global warming related to CO2 from burning fossil fuels back to Arrhenius back in 1896. And then there's anecdotes about how some journalist had to tell climate scientists about how their weather stations were heating up because of urbanization. But the reality is that back in the 70's and 80's, there's already plenty of scientific papers about the effect of urbanization and how to interpret historical weather station data.
The other guy is wrong to say that 'it is just math', because it isn't.
But then we have you throwing out this very oddly titled essay that's about statistical methods in medical studies. The title was wrong because even the esasy itself doesn't say that most published research finds are false. And the paper clearly only talks about medical studies. Not about all of science. But you just throw this out here at random.
And you wonder why people are annoyed? If you think the USDA hardiness map is 'woke', then just don't use it. The map has nothing to do with climate change anyway because it is about the past data, not about the future. And it is has nothing to do with the federal government telling you how to do bonsai. If you want to use the old USDA map based on data from the 1940's to 1980's only, and that's not using 'commercial satellite data', then go for it. No one is stopping you.
Just stop whining about it. And stop using it as a launch pad for a faux climate change debate.
The other guy is wrong to say that 'it is just math', because it isn't.
But then we have you throwing out this very oddly titled essay that's about statistical methods in medical studies. The title was wrong because even the esasy itself doesn't say that most published research finds are false. And the paper clearly only talks about medical studies. Not about all of science. But you just throw this out here at random.
And you wonder why people are annoyed? If you think the USDA hardiness map is 'woke', then just don't use it. The map has nothing to do with climate change anyway because it is about the past data, not about the future. And it is has nothing to do with the federal government telling you how to do bonsai. If you want to use the old USDA map based on data from the 1940's to 1980's only, and that's not using 'commercial satellite data', then go for it. No one is stopping you.
Just stop whining about it. And stop using it as a launch pad for a faux climate change debate.
Thanks for trying to science-splain to a scientist, but you clearly don't know what you are talking about. The stats here are dead simple: average of the annual low temperature measurement from each sensor. You're welcome to disagree with their methodology for interpolating the results between the geographic locations where their 12,000+ sensors are (and they published the raw data, so you could compute your own map using your own preferred interpolation method if you want to), but the data at the sites where the sensors are located is unbiased.That couldn't be farther from the truth. These aren't pure numbers. These are measurements subjected to statistical analysis. At every point in the scientific process of gathering and analyzing data, researchers have decisions to make in how they will gather and interperet the data.
Relatedly, there's growing concerns in academia that the majority of findings published in peer reviewed journals are false. Having worked as an editor for a journal, I absolutely believe that.
Why Most Published Research Findings Are False - PMC
There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false. The probability that a research claim is true may depend on study power and bias, the number of other studies on the same question, and, importantly, the ratio of ...
shohin_branches
Chumono
Okay, wow, finished reading through the resopnses and as a person who went to school for horticulture do y'all even know what the USDA hardiness map is for? 
This is not a guideline for out of ground plants, it's a simplification of what well-esrablished, healthy plants can survive in your yard. It doesn't replace wisdom and hard lessons learned over the years. Hell, some plants I can't even find consistent information on their zone hardiness range. Some tags will say the plant is hardy to zone 4, others will say hardy to zone 3.
This doesn't mean you stop mulching or coning plants it means that you could probably add a different shrub to your garden or plant your veggies a week earlier, nothing more complicated than that.
This is not a guideline for out of ground plants, it's a simplification of what well-esrablished, healthy plants can survive in your yard. It doesn't replace wisdom and hard lessons learned over the years. Hell, some plants I can't even find consistent information on their zone hardiness range. Some tags will say the plant is hardy to zone 4, others will say hardy to zone 3.
This doesn't mean you stop mulching or coning plants it means that you could probably add a different shrub to your garden or plant your veggies a week earlier, nothing more complicated than that.
