New to the site . . . looking for suggestions on starter material and watering

[rockm]

One more thing - bonsai mostly involves "cutting down" larger stock, rather than growing out. I spent my first year buying lots of smaller sticks in pots, and have resorted to planting them in the yard or getting rid of them. Better to spend your money buying a decent "trunk", and then working on that.

This is, arguably, the most valuable thing a beginner can learn. Big bonsai are NOT grown from "baby bonsai" Most bonsai are "reduced" from much larger trees. Understanding that can change the way you buy stock. More expensive larger more developed stock from reputable dealers is expensive because you are paying for the time it took to produce it, not really for the stock itself...

The only thing more experienced bonsai folk look at in stock is the bottom third of the trunk--branches and leaves are temporary. The bottom of the trunk--the oldest part of the tree--is the "soul" of any bonsai produced from it...

Sounds kind of "wax on-wax off," but it's something to keep in the back of your head while you're selecting trees to work on...

 

[Specialkayme]

Dude you have learned a lot in a couple of pages of thread, better than usuall for sure.

Thanks Bill.

Drystall is a product you may be able to find redily, as well as turface, go to a building supply store and get aquarium gravel sized sand blasting sand, pine/cedar bark mulch, equal parts of each with decent watering regime can do well for you.

I think I might be a little confused now. Should I be going with 50/50 sand/bark mulch mix, or should I be looking for turface? Or is it the same thing?

And should I avoid pumace, perlite, lava stones, coconut fiber, ect? Or are you doing your best to dumb it down for me

Worth it's weight in gold is this site, so much reading you will think you stayed at a Holiday Inn - http://www.bonsaitalk.com/lug/link_in_frame.php?link=11&c=59 go to the articles section, it's bonsai heaven on earth for information.

Lol, I've already read a few of the articles, but realized much of it was WAY over my head, lol. Good stuff there.

More expensive larger more developed stock from reputable dealers is expensive because you are paying for the time it took to produce it, not really for the stock itself...

Oh trust me, I know it's priced what it is for a reason. Additionally, there arn't very many people who are willing to sell it at those prices, so I know there is alot of time and energy put into them.

However, the $200-500 price tag is just more than I can afford at the moment. Granted, you get what you pay for, but when you don't have it you can't spend it.

The only thing more experienced bonsai folk look at in stock is the bottom third of the trunk--branches and leaves are temporary. The bottom of the trunk--the oldest part of the tree--is the "soul" of any bonsai produced from it...

So here is a good question in regards to looking for stock. I should be trying to find a good thick trunk, hopefully 2 or 3" in diameter, right? Also, hopefully a good flare to the base too (or nebari, like the use of correct terminology? lol).

But if I'm looking at the bottom 1/3rd of the tree, how big of a tree should I be looking for? 2-4'? Say I find a good tree, 4' tall, good think trunk, decent nebari, decent root structure. How far should you cut it back? Down to about six inches?

Obviously it would depend on how big you want it, but I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the process.

 

[rockm]

"But if I'm looking at the bottom 1/3rd of the tree, how big of a tree should I be looking for? 2-4'? Say I find a good tree, 4' tall, good think trunk, decent nebari, decent root structure. How far should you cut it back? Down to about six inches?"

As the old saying goes --"size doesn't matter" It's about character in that bottom third--does it look believable in miniature as a "life size" tree does? Do the surface roots grip the soil evenly at soil level, or do they most shoot straight downwards into the soil? Are there surface ridges emanting up from the roots on the trunk? etc.

To get a feel for what looks "right" look at the bottom third of life-size trees. What catches your eye or makes that tree "believable" as a tree? Same goes for stock. Even some younger stock can be made to look "Old" if the bones of a believable "life size" tree are there.

Where you cut it back depends on where you want it to "end." Remember that you're goign to add another two thirds in height (very roughly) to what yoyu've cut back. Work from there...

 

[greerhw]

Hey everyone. I just joined, so I figured I'd pop my head in and introduce myself. I live in Greensboro, NC (I'll update my profile later) and I've been dabbling in bonsai for the last two or so years. I say dabble, because I can't really claim that I do bonsai.

I got my first "mall bonsai" juniper about two years ago. It didn't perform well, and it died (I think b/c lack of water). I then learned from my mistakes and got an oak, japanese maple, juniper, and black pine (all in rough condition, and I'll probably be asking for help soon) for cheap through ebay or the local nursery over the course of the past year and a half. Unfortunately, I took a vacation in the height of summer last year and asked my neighbor to water the plants. She did not. Only the black pine made it, although it's seen better days.

So, I replaced the japanese maple last weekend, and ordered a cork bark oak online. Both seem to be doing well so far.

But, I'm looking to solve a few problems. For starters, what do you guys use for watering? I try to water once a day during spring/summer/early fall, then in winter no watering at all, but my work schedule sometimes leaves gaps in the watering schedule. Also, I've been having some difficulty knowing when is too much water, and when is not enough water. The smaller bonsai pots (and the larger 1-3 gallon growing pots) don't allow for too much water retention, and it appears it needs 2-3 waterings during the summer. So I was thinking an automatic watering system? Any experiences, tips, suggestions?

Second, I'm looking for some good starter beginner material. Something that is going to be forgiving in my mistakes, still look wonderful (to keep my enthusiasm), is good to learn techniques off of, and still doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Most of the pre or stock material I've found online runs about $100-300, which is way more than I can afford right now (other than the seedlings or the $10 material that would take 30 years to produce anything). I've been keeping my eye on ebay for the used cheap stuff, that's still in good condition, but it's hard to come by. My local nursery doesn't appear to be much help, as they only sell the big trees for big bucks, and the ones that have smaller trees (distributors) don't sell individual trees to the little guy (me). Any suggestions on where I can find good stock? I was hoping to do some pine (although not juniper, not really a fan of the look), hopefully black pine, red pine, and white pine (although I may be getting ahead of myself) along with some elms and oaks, but not too sure what I'm getting into here.

Thanks for bearing through my ramblings. I appreciate all the help.

My 2 cents, I didn't read all the posts, just yours. You have picked the hardest species to work with for a biginner, pines. It takes months and sometimes years of study at workshops and then find out they won't do well in your climate. Find a club, join, go to a few meetings and ask the old timers what works best where you live. They will be glad to help you out, good luck.

Harry

 

[PaulH]

Thanks Bill.



I think I might be a little confused now. Should I be going with 50/50 sand/bark mulch mix, or should I be looking for turface? Or is it the same thing?

And should I avoid pumace, perlite, lava stones, coconut fiber, ect? Or are you doing your best to dumb it down for me

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT put bark, coconut fiber, compost, etc in your soil! Bonsai grow best in a non organic mix of akadama, pumice, and lava or one of the substitutes for those ingredients e.g Turface for akadama, Drystall for pumice, Coarse sand for lava. If you use the correct soil you will never have to worry about over watering or rotten roots.
Paul

 

[chansen]

Thanks Bill.

I think I might be a little confused now. Should I be going with 50/50 sand/bark mulch mix, or should I be looking for turface? Or is it the same thing?

And should I avoid pumace, perlite, lava stones, coconut fiber, ect? Or are you doing your best to dumb it down for me

I believe Bill was stating equal parts pumice, turface, sand, and bark/mulch. From what I have seen, the ratios of organic/inorganic Bill suggests is pretty common. Often there are different inorganics used based on what's available. For instance, I use a lot of lava. But you can see in the picture why (they let me load up as much as I could carry for $20!). I didn't use lava as much when I lived in Virginia because it was more difficult to find. Dry stall is a horse bedding product that is pumice. You can go here: http://www.turface.com/distributors/state/ to find a turface distributor for large quantities. You can also find turface at big box stores. I've bought it as Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil. You could also look for haydite in place of one of the other inorganics.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

The thing is, the box stores really don't even have good prices. I have now have several hundred sticks that might someday make nice bonsai for my kids or someone else. I however, enjoy the gardening side in which I grow plants that will become bonsai.

If you want bonsai soon you must either:
A: pay someone that has grown the stock for you or
B: dig stock that mother nature has grown for you


There is no substitute for time. However you can take certain shortcuts with money spent wisely.

Thanks Clyde...my initial reply wasn't going to be quite as tactful...

Box stores, bad...digging up stock, good...something I didn't figure out during my first year (or 5) of doing bonsai. I still occasionally catch myself turning pots around and digging in the soil of nursery cans at Lowe's, but fortunately I've long-since overcome the ability to find any "good material" there. Unfortunately, most of us have to learn the hard way.

 

[greerhw]

Thanks Bill.



I think I might be a little confused now. Should I be going with 50/50 sand/bark mulch mix, or should I be looking for turface? Or is it the same thing?

And should I avoid pumace, perlite, lava stones, coconut fiber, ect? Or are you doing your best to dumb it down for me

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT put bark, coconut fiber, compost, etc in your soil! Bonsai grow best in a non organic mix of akadama, pumice, and lava or one of the substitutes for those ingredients e.g Turface for akadama, Drystall for pumice, Coarse sand for lava. If you use the correct soil you will never have to worry about over watering or rotten roots.
Paul

AMEN brother !

Harry

 

[Specialkayme]

Ok, so I should look for an even mix of akadama/Turface, pumace/Drystall, and lava/sand?

This may sound like a dumb question, but where do you find that stuff? I've never heard of akadama, let alone where to find it. And last I checked, pumace was what my mom used to rub dry skin off her feet. As far as a growing material, I don't know where to look. I can check pet stores, as aquatic plant soil, but other than that I'm a bit clueless. Do most large plant stores get requests often enough to know what it is?

I'm hoping to be able to find all this stuff locally (or close substitutes) on Friday so I can fix my mistakes.

When I repot the black pine, should I hose off all the soil that's in the roots, or just transpot what moves freely, if that makes sense.

 

[greerhw]

Ok, so I should look for an even mix of akadama/Turface, pumace/Drystall, and lava/sand?

This may sound like a dumb question, but where do you find that stuff? I've never heard of akadama, let alone where to find it. And last I checked, pumace was what my mom used to rub dry skin off her feet. As far as a growing material, I don't know where to look. I can check pet stores, as aquatic plant soil, but other than that I'm a bit clueless. Do most large plant stores get requests often enough to know what it is?

I'm hoping to be able to find all this stuff locally (or close substitutes) on Friday so I can fix my mistakes.

When I repot the black pine, should I hose off all the soil that's in the roots, or just transpot what moves freely, if that makes sense.

Just a warning, JBP don't like to be repotted and root pruned. Americans repot their trees to often.

Harry

 

[Specialkayme]

Thanks. I have owned it for (roughly) two years. I believe it had been in the same pot for one or two years before I had it, and hasn't been repotted since. I figured once every 3-4 years was appropriate.

 

[digger714]

Sounds like youve got the bug. Im in mooresville, about an hour from you, and the Bonsai Society of the Carolinas is the club you want to join. They are based in the northern part of charlotte, right at the area that I85 & I77 come together. Ive been a member for a few months and they are great. The club president just got accepted to an apprenticeship in japan. He starts this month, and the others there are very knowledgable about bonsai. The VP is awaiting his apprenticeship. We meet at the Bonsai learning center off Beaties Ford Rd on the second saturday of each month. Our meeting is this saturday at 1, and lasts until 4 or until everyone is done. The Center closes at 5, so alot of us stay and work on trees until closing, getting some personal one on one education. You are welcome to come sit in and see if you want to join. The dues are only 30.00 for a year, and if you pay this week, we are repotting trees, and everyone gets enough soil to use on a medium size tree. Check out the website. www.bonsaicarolina.com.

As far as your new hobby, welcome. Its great, and everyone is right about not getting into buying the 10 or even 50 dollar trees, save your money and spend a little more for a good pre trained bonsai tree. If they arent grown for bonsai, you will waste alot of time watching them grow, and fixing the nursery mistakes, unless you want to get some 1 gallon junipers to practice styling, and wiring. Then if you kill one, its not that big of a deal. I did about a half dozen when i started, but have since planted them in the ground to grow larger, but it did teach me alot about wiring, and some styling. Procumbens nana are great to work with, and only 4-5 dollars each. Shimpaku juniper are probably the favorite of most people, because of the different styles you can create, and dark green foliage, but are a bit more expensive. This is what you want to get, maybe spend 150 or more for a good one. The trunk has a beautiful color to it. The best thing to do is take some of the classes at the Center, and get a tree with a full day of lessons. Ive seen the ones for the shimpaku class, and they are very nice. Not sure how much it is though. I got to see all the trees for the classes this year, and anyone would be proud to have them sitting on their benches. Tridents are fun to work with, because you can get results in 4-6 years from a seedling. Its probably at least a 5 year commitment to grow some decent trees, but if you get into conifers (like pines) you are looking at double or triple that time for the same size tree, but the beauty of them makes them fun to learn. Im still learning. Read as much as you can about each species you want to grow. Learn how they grow outdoors, and try to replicate the needs of the tree. Some trees cant be grown in our area, but most can. Decide what type you want to grow, indoors or outdoors, and what size you want small, medium, large, then start looking at species to fit. For outdoor growing, get some tridents, junipers (pro nana or shimpaku), japanese maples, maybe some small japanese black pines to start learning how they grow. Then there are dozens more to play with. Anyway, good luck with your trees, and let me know if you have any questions. Come sit in on Saturday. Bonsai people are very fun to hang out with, and very eager to teach what they know. Would love to have some more members.

Brad

 

[Specialkayme]

Thanks for the information Brad. I will DEFINITELY take you up on the offer to come join one of your sessions. Unfortunately, tomorrow I'm stuck at the dealership getting my car fixed all day on Sat. What's on the agenda for next month?

 

[Specialkayme]

So I went on a hunt today looking for grow medium. In particular, I was hoping to find some good lava, turface, and pumace. If I had to, I'd settle for some sand. I ended up going to a little higher end nursery in the area, and after looking around I couldn't find anything that I was looking for, so I asked the cashier. Unfortunately, no lava stones, no pumace, and they seemed unfamiliar with turface. They asked how much I needed, and I said enough to fill a small pot . . . a bonsai pot actually.

They got all excited, and said their greenhouse manager was BIG on bonsai, and he would know exactly what to do. They introduced me to him (very nice guy) and he got super pumped when I asked about bonsai medium. He told me that the clay pellets (the ones that break down, don't know what they called) aren't available locally, and you'd have to order them (big $$$ on shipping too). He also wasn't aware of anyone in the area that had lava stones. But he did tell me that he uses permatill (anyone hear of it?). It's basically like granular stones. The guy said that they are wonderful for drainage, and also keeps some moisture in (through the crevices in the stones). But, that I shouldn't use permatill alone, and should mix perlite and peat moss in with it. Normally (according to this guy) you should avoid the peat moss, but since in this climate the summers can get rather hot, he recommended a little peat moss in there to help retain some moisture in the summer. This way, he doesn't water very much during the winter.

Does this sound about like what I should be mixing up? Permatill, perlite, and a little peat moss?

Additionally, I just thought about this, I have a bag of Hydroton pellets. http://www.amazon.com/Hydroton-50-ltr/dp/B0039489ZC They are commonly used in hydroponic systems. They retain about as much moisture as perlite will, but still has plenty of crevices in them. Do you think these would be worth while to throw in there? Maybe crush a few of them into smaller pieces? Or am I better off avoiding it?

 

[rockm]

I've used permatil, wasn't really impressed with it. VERY coarse large particles.

I would avoid peat moss. Composted pine bark mulch that is sold in bulk as "soil conditioner" for clay soils is much better. Peat moss tends to be soggy and stay soggy. If it dries out, it is almost impossible to rewet. It will also repel water on the soil surface in hot dry weather...

Growers in the mid-atlantic have used crushed granite as a soil base, adding Turface and granular clay products and sand to it. Grit is from N.C. Sold as "Granni Grit" in FEED STORES where it's sold for poultry growers. I use "starter grade" meant for young "grower" chickens. Turface can be obtained though feed stores also. Also you might find out where local little leagues get their Turface (a grade of it is used in the base paths and pitcher's mounds on baseball fields). Also Haydite is used by cinder block manufacturers to make brick. It is an excellent base for bonsai soil.

Also, crushed quartz swimming pool filter sand is an excellent sand for bonsai. It is sold at swimming pool supply stores. It is stark white, but the particles are large enough not to compact in bonsai soil, unlike builders sand and sandbox play sand does.

Asking for 'bonsai soil' at landscape nurseries will usually draw "WTF" looks. They mostly have no idea of what you want and no idea of how to get it. Some have specialty bonsai sections that sell gallon bags of bonsai soil made elsewhere. Be prepared to pay big $$$ for something that may, or may not, be bonsai soil, though...

Forget about the pumice. We can't get it on the East Coast short of paying a bazillion dollars to ship it across country, or smashing up and sifting bar-b-que lava rock

Also, skip the perlite. It is of very little value. It tends to be too lightweight to be of much use, especially for smaller trees. It just can't physically hold up a tree...

 

[Specialkayme]

Lol, thanks rockm. So basically, I shouldn't have listened to anything he said? Basically, he said use permatil, peat moss, and perlite. You said peat moss is a no no, perlite is useless, and permatil isn't really worth it . . . am I right?

. . . back to the drawing board . . .

 

[rockm]

read my post more closely. The ingredients I included are NOT at nurseries, but they ARE around you. I'm in N. Va. I get Granni Grit from a local agricultural feed store (it's shipped up from your state). I get swimming pool filter sand from the local pool supply store. I've gotten haydite from a number of sources and Turface from Southern States...

And FWIW, I would consult a local bonsai club for sourcing for what THEY'RE using. Landscape nurseries are mostly clueless about bonsai.

 

[mcpesq817]

I can't speak to permatil, but I would stay away from peat moss and perlite.

I'm in the DC area, so I imagine that you have access to the soil components that rockm mentioned. I've used Dry Stall, which is sold at feed stores, as the source of my pumice. I've found that it's best to sift it though, but a 40 pound bag at $15 goes a long way. Do not, however, buy "Stall Dry", which I understand is pumice powder. For turface, I was able to get 50 pound bags of Turface MVP (the best size for bonsai) for $11, and 50 pound bags of Granni-Grit for probably around the same amount. The grit is very heavy though, so I don't use too much of that in my mix. Other than that, I've also used haydite and lava, of which I was able to buy a bucket full at a local bonsai nursery.

I've bought Turface MVP, Granni Grit and Dry Stall at my local SouthernStates (just make sure that you call the location to make sure they have what you are looking for, as it is a cooperative where member stores sell different things):

www.southernstates.com

One thing you might want to do is check your local bonsai nurseries to see if they have soil for sale. Buying soil components that have to be shipped to you can be quite expensive due to shipping costs from the weight. That's why it's better to check local sources. Sometimes local clubs can group member soil purchases together for discounts too.

As you've probably guessed by now, "soil" is pretty much a misnomer, as "bonsai soil" generally looks more like a mixture of pebbles or gravel than your normal run of the mill potting soil.

Hope that helps. I had many of the same questions when I started three years ago. Soil can be a hotly contested issue in the bonsai community, almost like religion. Some components are probably better than others, but the key is to get a mix that is well-draining that works for your budget.

*EDIT* Looks like rockm and I crossed posts, so a lot of what I said repeats what he said. He actually was very helpful in getting me established with soil (as well as other bonsai issues).

 

[Specialkayme]

Landscaping nurseries generally would be, but I figured a guy that did bonsai personally, that was giving me what he used, wasn't necessarily clueless. But who knows.

I'll stop by southern states and tractor supply later today, see if I can't rummage up some turface. The pool sand shouldn't be hard to come by, I used to be a Certified Pool Operator in 'another life.'

But what is the difference between permatill and Granni Grit? Size?

And what do you use as your "granular clay product" to add to the mix, if you don't mind me asking?

Based on your (Granni Grit + Sand + Turface + Granular Clay Product) mixture that you mentioned, what percentage (roughly) should those things be at?

BTW - thanks a million for being patient with me. I'm a slow learner, and I appreciate all the help. I'm looking to join a club very soon, but I need to fix my "botched" re-pot job asap.

 

[mcpesq817]

Why are you concerned about a granular clay product? I think to answer your question though, turface would be a granular clay product.

You can pot trees in 100% turface, 100% pumice, etc. For deciduous seedlings, 100% turface seems to do really well. I don't like 100% turface for my more mature trees, as I find it can tend to clump if you use organic fertilizer cakes, leading to dry spots in the soil.

It's probably worth experimenting to see what mix will work with your trees, watering habits, etc. You can try starting with a mix like this: 1/3 bark, 1/3 turface, 1/3 pumice, with a handful of grit thrown in as well as a bit of horticultural charcoal. For conifers, cut back on the bark (or cut it out completely). From there, you can experiment with various combinations over time.

For bark, I've used this product in the past which seems to be ok. I've pretty much moved to 100% inorganic soil though for most of my trees, so I don't use bark much, if at all.

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2783783&cp=2568444.2598677.1260387